tana wrote:... particles bouncing about, because it makes life more satisfying...
First, interesting thread but hella bunch of implications.
Second, how are you proposing that anything can be anything other than just "particles bouncing about"?
Just because the "bouncing" appears to be intricate or complex does not indicate "something more"....So whatcha mean here?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Some Schmo wrote:Since humans are a part of the universe, and we're conscious, then at least part of the universe is conscious.
That is, the part that thinks. Just like our whole bodies aren't conscious... just the parts that think (that's right, Johnson... I'm talking about you).
subgenius wrote:Second, how are you proposing that anything can be anything other than just "particles bouncing about"?
Just because the "bouncing" appears to be intricate or complex does not indicate "something more"....So whatcha mean here?
See, that's why I didn't want to have to play up here Goddamit. I thought for sure Schmo was a hard driving physicalist, and Subs a bona fide idealist.
Since I don't see any other hard evidence for idealism, supreme beings, life after death, phychic phenomena etc., except for 'first cause' arguments, I argue first cause arguments.
Tana; common sense says the universe, particles, all of existence is eternal/infinite/uncreated. Therefore one cannot use classic physics, mechanical systems to explain how it got here. It must be something other. Idealism is a 'something other'.
DrW; I grant that 'eternal particles' might cause some problems for physicalism theory, using classic physics. Using Quantum physics though, there exists a reputable theory that particles are not eternal, but come into existence spontaneously from a system that has the equivalence of nothing.
Gadianton; Tana, figure out your 'ologies' and, the OP link author still has consciousness dependent on (quantum) particles and, the logistics of 'woo' is illogical/causes headaches.
I'm still not sure what you're driving at, Tana. I mean, I can guess that you think the universe itself is alive and thinking, but you'd have to clarify your position.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I'm still not sure what you're driving at, Tana. I mean, I can guess that you think the universe itself is alive and thinking, but you'd have to clarify your position.
- Doc
Idealism, from the wiki; "In contrast to materialism, idealism asserts the primacy of consciousness as the origin and prerequisite of material phenomena. According to this view consciousness exists before and is the pre-condition of material existence. Consciousness creates and determines the material and not vice versa. Idealism believes consciousness and mind to be the origin of the material world and aims to explain the existing world according to these principles."
I think.... there is one mind/consciousness/awareness. And that is all there is.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:So you basically believe in Intelligent Design?
- Doc
Ya know, I believe I've laid down enough disclaimers here recently, including the third post in this thread, directed at you... that I find deity based existence theory illogical, Herr Doktor.
If you like, I could try to put together a case for why this has the appearance of M.G. based trolling.
Believe you me, I've read this thread about four times through and I still can't wrap my mind around what you're on about. That's why I'm asking you to simplify your position and draw a brother a picture.
The best I can tell is you believe the universe is sentient along the lines of a Marvel 'Celestial'.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Believe you me, I've read this thread about four times through and I still can't wrap my mind around what you're on about. That's why I'm asking you to simplify your position and draw a brother a picture.
The best I can tell is you believe the universe is sentient along the lines of a Marvel 'Celestial'.
I think the answer is, I don't have a _____clue as to what I'm arguing for, all I know is what I'm arguing against. Intelligence-less existence. More simply, Materialism.
Hrm... I'll have to think about this for a bit. Thanks for clarifying...
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
