The Last Jedi **WARNING: SPOILERS ALLOWED**

[_honorentheos]

That's not really what happened. Other rebel pilots made it to the exhaust port, and it was a group attack. If Luke had just flown in by himself and blown it up then you might have a point*. But he had a lot of support. Plus, he was already a really good pilot. The Force only kicked in at the last moment for the final targeting of the port. He very well might have blown it up without the Force helping him; it just gave him a little nudge and guidance at the very end.

This. Plus Vader, being his dad, didn't want him dead. He was always playing a game of letting him get close.

I'm not sure what the debate is here.

On the one hand, it's clear that ALL of the characters in TFA are over-the-top, more capable versions of their 'A New Hope' counterparts. Po is practically god-level at flying, Rey can beat a Sith at lightsaber force grabbing when Luke struggled to get one to move on Hoth in his second movie use of the force. The soccer ball is more R2 than R2. Luke is so Obi Wan zen master cool he doesn't even talk in the film, just emotes.

But then, why is Rey's gender part of this? That's stupid to be concerned that the central hero's gender matters. She's the hero in a movie where everyone is over the top good at what they do. Hell, even Chewie's crossbow is pointed out to be a secret mega-weapon that Han failed to recognize in a multi-decade smuggling and armed resistance career.

Personally, I think it has more of a problem with the culture of today than with any kind of secret liberal feminist message. Just imagine all the characters as being millennials portraying how they see themselves and it makes all kinds of sense. It doesn't take time and effort to get good at stuff. There's an app for that. Expertise doesn't matter anymore because we can Google everything we need to know. Everyone's a Jedi now. Why not?

[_Water Dog]

I'm not sure what the debate is here.

There isn't a debate. Just the presentation of more opportunities for EA to prove Doc's "up his own ass prick" assessment true.

[_MsJack]

Also, bullet point #4 is one of my favorite moments of the movie - I'm not kidding - and I think it's one of the most Star Warsy things in the film.

My favorite part in the film is definitely the part where Rey grabs something of Kylo's. Luke and Darth never did that.

Disney seems to be DMCA'ing all of the GIFs and shots of it off the Internet, but here's a shot of it. (Spoiler if you click on that.)

[_honorentheos]

I'm not sure what the debate is here.

There isn't a debate. Just the presentation of more opportunities for EAllusion to prove Doc's "up his own ass prick" assessment true.

From my view, it seems there's more of a meta-discussion issue involved that didn't really originate in this thread. EA read Doc's comments as demonstrating his POV originated out of prevalent views found among men's rights groups. Doc didn't distance his opinion from this assessment ("Whatever, slave. Keep carrying water for your Dominatrices.")

So we get to have a low-heat proxy men's rights war on a thread about Star Wars because...? Because Rey IS an over-powered character compared to Luke just as every other character is, but that has to be debated because no one can just argue about the underlying question of why some people get bent out of shape because a female hero character is over-the-top compared to her counterpart in a former film just like the male characters are?

Seriously, why the “F” does her gender matter? Doc can have his argument that Rey is basically too good at everything for him to reasonably suspend disbelief in order to enjoy the movie and leave it at that. The whole movie strained at this. The same could be said for Kylo Ren, for Po if he had a more important role, for just about all of the new characters in TFA. I enjoyed the movie and that included buying into the amped up versions of the characters from 'A New Hope'. Good for Rey that she's this generation's Luke Skywalker. Jyn was a better character in my opinion because Rogue One was just easier to get caught up in, in my opinion. But they're both damned popcorn movies, not art films with any kind of deep meaningful message about the human condition.

WTF is with people these days?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

“F” ing EA made it about her gender when I made a sort of ubiquitous comment that in reality include both a male and female trope, so to speak:

Rey is slumdog millionaire <- Male Mary Sue <- Female.

I responded in kind, and, in fact, made it a point to express my admiration for a different female Star Wars character in Rogue One. He, of course, was so blinded by his mental Red Book that he couldn't be bothered to notice that.

However, due to his mental illness he only sees the world through is self-hating lens, and thus assumes everything is about him being a White Male and the rest of us being too stupid to see how “F” ing brilliant and right he is about everything that he posts.

Interestingly enough, on Rotten Tomatoes critics rate TLJ at around 98% while the general audience rates it at ~54%. Obviously there's a social disconnect between the SJWars types and your average moviegoer.

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

Complaints about Rey as a Mary Sue is a man-o-sphere bugaboo that isn't accurate. And Mary Sue doesn't just mean "being an overpowered character" even if you accept that criticism of Rey. King Arthur isn't a Mary Sue. Rey is portrayed as preternaturally gifted because she's a remix of Luke's character who is portrayed as the same. That doesn't mean she is good at everything, admired by all the cool characters, and solves all conflict with ease. That's not an accurate description of the plot of the movie that you yourself said you didn't even fully watch.

(How you can so loudly and aggressively defend your take on a movie you are also claiming to not having even watched all the way through is impressive. Maybe you think if you pepper in enough nasty insults and buzzwords preferred by sexists, people won't notice that you are basing your opinion on not having even watched the film or its sequel.)

Pointing out you like other female characters doesn't mean you don't adopt bad criticisms in another place. This is yet another iteration of you thinking that "But I have a [blank] friend!" is an ironclad defense against criticism of any type. Just because Jyn Erso is your friend doesn't mean you don't adopt a silly criticism of Rey beloved by online misogynists.

The idea that movie critics who overwhelmingly have a generally positive reaction to the movie must be "SJW's" because they liked it is ridiculous and again reinforces the initial criticism of parroting MRA rhetoric.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Oh my god. EA just posted about how right he is again. TOTALLY DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING LIKE WE DIDN'T SEE REY BEING THE BESTEST MOST POWERFUL SJWar CHARACTER EVER
- Doc

[_honorentheos]

He's not wrong, though.

[_Water Dog]

I made it very clear Rey's gender is not what bugged me. Is this what libs always resort to, thought stopping accusations of sexism and racism?

Y'all are better than this.

Frankly, I would expect that women and those who pretend to be defenders of women, would find it offensive. It could have been an opportunity for a realistic and strong female character, instead the way it comes across is that we can only make girls look good by having them copycat the boys and bestowing them special magical powers.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Y'all are better than this.

No. They're not. They never are, and they'll never be better than that.

Frankly, I would expect that women and those who pretend to be defenders of women, would find it offensive. It could have been an opportunity for a realistic and strong female character, instead the way it comes across is that we can only make girls look good by having them copycat the boys and bestowing them special magical powers.

You tell a feminist that they ought to take the bumpers down when they're bowling and they'll lose their crap. They have no concept of equality, fairness, accountability, respect, and earning your way in life. You treat them equally they literally think you're oppressing them.

And that's sad, because life is hard and they need to learn how to adapt. You know. Like men do.

- Doc