The Last Jedi **WARNING: SPOILERS ALLOWED**

[_EAllusion]

Cam,

I was originally giving you the benefit of a doubt on the thread. I was open to your comments about Rey and the TFA generally being a comment about not being able to suspend disbelief enough in the movie to get into it, and bailing before you saw it all the way through. I don't read or care about "man-o-sphere" websites and have no idea what is a common trope among those who do. I was open to EA possibly misreading you based on a parallel he saw in your post with those sites. I even share some of the same criticisms of TFA in regards to it being amped up to an almost mythic level. I just don't see this being a problem with Rey so much as the entire cast of characters as well as the movie plot points. I even agree with the "2 Fast 2 Furious" joking meme to the extent the movie is mega Star Wars and can't agree with EA on the attempts to say Rey and Luke are the same any more than can agree the Death Star and Starkiller Base are basically the same thing. Yeah, sure. One just happens to need the energy of an entire star to power it but they're more or less the same thing...

But man, you took the shovel and dug hard at this hole in this thread to the point it isn't debatable that there is more going on than just a problem with the movie.

I'm not saying Luke and Rey are the same though. Rather I'm saying that Rey parallels Luke in that they are characters who are preternaturally gifted and succeed where everyone else fails because that's what the story needs them to be. There are differences. Belying the "Rey is just a perfect version of Luke" take, Rey has more internal strife than Luke in TFA compared to ANH. I'm saying both characters work on the same contrivances.

The argument was made in this thread that Rey is just naturally good at everything, whereas Luke has to earn it. Hence Rey is a Mary Sue. That's not true at all. Luke is great at lots of things just because and there's a 1:1 parallel between how each character is written to make that happen. This shouldn't be surprising. At the end of the day, Rey is a borderline knockoff of Luke because J.J. "play it safe" Abrams opted to do a soft reboot of Star Wars. Of course they're going to have parallels in how they function in the stories. Clearly Rey can Jedi Mind trick at a stage when Luke could not. That both can just naturally use the force in the way the story requires to save the day after barely learning of it? That's totally the same.

Following your analogy, the Starkiller base and the Death Star function the same way in both stories. One is clearly a knock-off of the other. That the Starkiller base is more powerful or immobile doesn't change the fact that it has an almost 1:1 correspondence with its function in the story as the Death Star. It wouldn't make sense to say the Starkiller base is stupid because it is the perfect weapon built with one coincidental fatal flaw that the heroes get to exploit then deny that Star Wars is also like that.

[_Ceeboo]

I think we need to have a 'safe space' made for MDB posters who want to talk about Star Wars movies.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[Guest]

I'm not saying Luke and Rey are the same though. Rather I'm saying that Rey parallels Luke in that they are characters who are preternaturally gifted and succeed where everyone else fails because that's what the story needs them to be. There are differences. Belying the "Rey is just a perfect version of Luke" take, Rey has more internal strife than Luke in TFA compared to ANH. I'm saying both characters work on the same contrivances.

...

Following your analogy, the Starkiller base and the Death Star function the same way in both stories. One is clearly a knock-off of the other. That the Starkiller base is more powerful or immobile doesn't change the fact that it has an almost 1:1 correspondence with its function in the story as the Death Star. It wouldn't make sense to say the Starkiller base is stupid because it is the perfect weapon built with one coincidental fatal flaw that the heroes get to exploit then deny that Star Wars is also like that.

I essentially agree with this. They're parallel, in my opinion, but TFA amps them up. I wouldn't say Rey is a perfect version of Luke, more like an amplified version. Her lows at the start of TFA are lower, her abilities and highs are higher.

The argument was made in this thread that Rey is just naturally good at everything, whereas Luke has to earn it. Hence Rey is a Mary Sue. That's not true at all. Luke is great at lots of things just because and there's a 1:1 parallel between how each character is written to make that happen. This shouldn't be surprising. At the end of the day, Rey is a borderline knockoff of Luke because J.J. "play it safe" Abrams opted to do a soft reboot of Star Wars. Of course they're going to have parallels in how they function in the stories. Clearly Rey can Jedi Mind trick at a stage when Luke could not. That both can just naturally use the force in the way the story requires to save the day after barely learning of it? That's totally the same.

This is more than I can agree with. Yes they both have exceptional abilities at the start of the movie (Luke as a pilot and droid mechanic, Rey as a hand-to-hand combatant, engineer, hyperdrive mechanic, ...) Parallel? Yes. The same? No.

ETA: I also feel like I need to clarify that I enjoyed TFA well enough and went along for the over-the-top ride. I'm cool with Rey being the new Luke Skywalker for a new generation of fans. Whatever that ends up meaning.

[_honorentheos]

I think we need to have a 'safe space' made for MormonDiscussions.com posters who want to talk about Star Wars movies.

Peace,
Ceeboo

...and people who don't participate in threads except to comment about other people's comments.

<- requisite smilie that erases everything I actually said so we're cool.

[_Ceeboo]

I think we need to have a 'safe space' made for MormonDiscussions.com posters who want to talk about Star Wars movies.

Peace,
Ceeboo

...and people who don't participate in threads except to comment about other people's comments.

<- requisite smilie that erases everything I actually said so we're cool.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mark-hamill- ... 23576.html

Huh. Mark Hamill distances himself from the latest iteration of Luke Skywalker. He believes Luke never would've gjven up or hidden out like he did. Man They should've brought him in as a writer...

- Doc

[_Philo Sofee]

Kevin Graham
OK, so how else do we get around the fact that all of the episodes tell the same story about how the force is stronger with people depending on what's in their blood? (i.e. the Sywalker lineage)

It's the postmodern spin off of ancient Israel being the chosen people of God?

[_EAllusion]

Kevin Graham
OK, so how else do we get around the fact that all of the episodes tell the same story about how the force is stronger with people depending on what's in their blood? (i.e. the Sywalker lineage)

It's the postmodern spin off of ancient Israel being the chosen people of God?

The idea that "The Force" runs in bloodlines isn't present in the first film at all. Access to it seems to depend mostly on faith with some aptitude. This is the earliest, best portrayal of it. That carries through the second film where you could infer that heredity is meaningful based on Skywalker being the son of Vader, but it's not really implied. It's not until the 3rd film where there's an implication that "The Force" runs in families. The prequels and larger Star Wars universe is what really hammers that home, and that's always been kind of lame in my view.

One of the things Rian Jonhson does in this film that I like is strip that all away back to the the more original idea.

[_EAllusion]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mark-hamill-rips-role-apos-145123576.html

Huh. Mark Hamill distances himself from the latest iteration of Luke Skywalker. He believes Luke never would've gjven up or hidden out like he did. Man They should've brought him in as a writer...

- Doc

I think the film has been out long enough to actually discuss it now.

My initial reaction referred to this comment from Hamill. I agree with it. I don't like what this film does with Luke's character. It undermines his characterization from the original trilogy. One of his defining traits is boundless optimism in people's capacity for goodness. It carries through all the films and is the reason he triumphs in the end. To strip that away is so contrary to who he is that it's a thumb in the eye to the original writing.

The Luke, Rey, Kylo, Snoke part of The Last Jedi is by far the best part of the movie. And as its own story it is good. In fact, I would've preferred if other parts of the film just didn't exist and we got more of it. Luke's explanations of the force and his disillusionment with the Jedi were quite enjoyable and I would've liked more. I'm able to compartmentalize it for what it is and enjoy it on its own terms. It's just that to do that I have to mentally disconnect it from the story that's supposed to precede it. (I already pretend that the prequels don't exist.)

"The Force" part of this film is A-level Star Wars. The resistance cat and mouse game was decent. The Finn/Rose stuff was not all that good and the Casino sequences in particular were borderline prequel-like if not for the better acting.

[_Xenophon]

I'm quite late to the thread (apart from a quick meme) as I had been unable to see the movie and didn't want it ruined.

I generally agree that the "over the top" ability of Star Wars heroes to defy odds is a pretty central theme in every movie (it is a space opera for God's sake) and to call out Rey as if she is different in this regard reads as odd, at best. Poe's opening sequence in TLJ is far and above the most ridiculous in this regard and should be pointed to as the prime example of it before anything else.

I too think Luke's response to Ben turning makes little sense given the context of the other movies. This is my Expanded Universe bias talking but Luke often sought isolation but was never one to run from the fight. Although he would sometimes disappear he always came back when the action started and you never had to go looking for him. That said, his parts in the movie are truly some of its better parts. Seconded to the idea of more force stuff, less casino.

With all that in mind, I find that I have disliked the Force Awakens and The Last Jedi as continuations of the original trilogy but I think they are enjoyable movies when viewed in a sort of vacuum and taken just at the sci-fi action movies they have become. I'm also pleased that it appears some of the mysticism that was the Star Wars of my youth has been able to successfully be repackaged and shared with a new set of kids.