Maksutov wrote:Just because the church emasculates men doesn't mean that it empowers women, Dog. Your source is one dude who isn't speaking at General Conference.
Half of the human race is more or less female. It's nice that the church pretends to take note of this but we'll see what difference it makes outside of rhetoric.
Sprinkling themselves with PC pixie dust isn't making the church more humane, transparent or rational. No matter what proclamations, speeches, ponderizations they come up with. The earlier saints claimed to be great feminists, espousing women's right to vote, while cynically planning to use it to extend their own power, a foreshadowing of the IWY/ERA debacle.
The Church certainly does emasculate men. I feel as sorry for men in the Church as I do women.
Res Ipsa wrote:Jesse Pinkman, I left at age 19, so maybe I wasn't around long enough to observe this process of emasculation. Could you discuss some examples?
One of the ways that the Church emasculates men is by making them feel "less than" if they don't have a decent career. Those who have money are the ones who are called to high callings in the Church. Take a look at the Stake Presidents and the bulk of the apostles. There are a few who didn't make a lot of money, but those who didn't normally knew someone who was already in the apostleship.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?
"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MDB.
Music is my drug of choice.
"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MDB _________________
Res Ipsa wrote:Jesse Pinkman, I left at age 19, so maybe I wasn't around long enough to observe this process of emasculation. Could you discuss some examples?
One of the ways that the Church emasculates men is by making them feel "less than" if they don't have a decent career. Those who have money are the ones who are called to high callings in the Church. Take a look at the Stake Presidents and the bulk of the apostles. There are a few who didn't make a lot of money, but those who didn't normally knew someone who was already in the apostleship.
That's a good example. On phone, so I'll just paste this comment from a few years ago.
The emasculation of men is a separate subject but one that I resonate with. It's something that I think sisters in the church also don't comprehend, just as I don't fully comprehend how the patriarchy effects them. I had a conversation with my wife where she was talking about how harmful pornography is to women, in all it's various forms, objectifying women and creating standards which are unattainable. After my wife's little rant, which I wholeheartedly agreed with by the way, I then explained to her that everything she said is precisely how men in the church feel. In all its various literature and publications, from the Ensign with it's leave it to beaver stories and photos to whitewashed Teachings of the Presidents manuals that describe nearly-perfect fictional men who never really lived, the church creates an unattainable standard for men that becomes pornography to women. The church is their porn and can often drive a wedge between husband and wife just the same as a copy of playboy or fifty shades of grey would.
Making matters worse, we then see our wives comparing us to those standards all the time, which they let us know in various ways. They openly lust after a certain type of husband and father that we aren't, perhaps even a specific leader or leaders that they idolize, maybe hanging up framed pictures of them or things they've said in the house. From our end the church then puts overwhelming amounts of fear-based pressure laced with eternally damning ramifications on the men from the time they enter boy scouts. We are taught to submit and be perfectly obedient to the will of leaders, and if we don't, our families will be led astray, and the consequences will be laid on our heads. If we aren't receiving profound spiritual confirmations that the leaders are perfectly inspired, we're sinners, something is wrong with us. The righteousness and the will of God, moral good itself, become synonymous with the church and its programs. Just a few weeks ago a stake youth leader came and spoke. His whole talk, aimed at the young men, was about the teachings of presidents manuals and how all of the past leaders of the church were exemplary men, near-perfect, and way ahead of their contemporaries, and that all young men need to do is follow their impeccable examples. Messages like this aren't just absorbed by the young men, setting them up for failure, but they are absorbed by the women also who then have these superman expectations.
How are men emasculated? EVERYTHING. Experiences vary, but at the least you may remember all the porn and masturbation shaming. For a period in my youth it was so bad they had me concerned I might be gay. (Shulem will be excited to hear this)
Res Ipsa wrote:Jesse Pinkman, I left at age 19, so maybe I wasn't around long enough to observe this process of emasculation. Could you discuss some examples?
Ask Water Dog if he feels emasculated right now. His wife loves the Church more than she loves and respects her marriage. A lot of women use LDS men for a lifestyle and if the man doesn't give them the lifestyle they envision then the men are a failure of a man.
LDS men are virtually de-balled and henpecked by their women if they step outside of the Prescribed LDS Male Role. God forbid a man drinks a tea or has a coffee without the family losing its crap. God forbid if he wants to watch football on Sunday or watch Breaking Bad. God forbid he leaves the Church and his kid gets married in the temple. The Church undermines males at virtually every turn assuming the patriarch of the home.
Also, let's be honest here. How many LDS men have you see blubber and cry at the drop of a hat? It's like they have to act like a total pussy in order to act right. Very few men are genuinely masculine within the LDS church. It's bizarre.
eta: You're born and bred to serve others, to be a draft horse, and then act like a happy gelding about it all.
- Doc
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Jesse Pinkman wrote:The Church certainly does emasculate men. I feel as sorry for men in the Church as I do women.
Res Ipsa wrote:Jesse Pinkman, I left at age 19, so maybe I wasn't around long enough to observe this process of emasculation. Could you discuss some examples?
One of the ways that the Church emasculates men is by making them feel "less than" if they don't have a decent career. Those who have money are the ones who are called to high callings in the Church. Take a look at the Stake Presidents and the bulk of the apostles. There are a few who didn't make a lot of money, but those who didn't normally knew someone who was already in the apostleship.
The church insists that every relationship is a three way, with itself as the dominant member. That often turns into men intimidating and humiliating men, at times in front of their families, including their women.
Res Ipsa wrote:I'm missing something, WD. Which parts of what you quoted do you interpret as "emasculating the men." Which parts do you interpret as "orienting them into a mode of serving the women." Or are you referring to things other than the material you quoted?
Yes I meant "lone"
I'm referring to other things mostly. This is an ongoing argument I've been making. Miller does what he always does, which is speak in riddles and frustratingly avoid specifics. The closest he gets to specifics is his comments about porn. He's speaking to the current undercurrent in church culture though, which is all about the sanctity of women, etc.
Res Ipsa wrote:I'm missing something, Water Dog. Which parts of what you quoted do you interpret as "emasculating the men." Which parts do you interpret as "orienting them into a mode of serving the women." Or are you referring to things other than the material you quoted?
Yes I meant "lone"
I'm referring to other things mostly. This is an ongoing argument I've been making. Miller does what he always does, which is speak in riddles and frustratingly avoid specifics. The closest he gets to specifics is his comments about porn. He's speaking to the current undercurrent in church culture though, which is all about the sanctity of women, etc.
Gotcha. I've seen you make this as kind of a running argument, but I'm not in close enough touch with what's being said on a week to week or conference to conference basis to always be able to see what you are seeing. I appreciate you filling me in.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Res Ipsa wrote:Jesse Pinkman, I left at age 19, so maybe I wasn't around long enough to observe this process of emasculation. Could you discuss some examples?
Ask Water Dog if he feels emasculated right now. His wife loves the Church more than she loves and respects her marriage. A lot of women use LDS men for a lifestyle and if the man doesn't give them the lifestyle they envision then the men are a failure of a man.
LDS men are virtually de-balled and henpecked by their women if they step outside of the Prescribed LDS Male Role. God forbid a man drinks a tea or has a coffee without the family losing its ____. God forbid if he wants to watch football on Sunday or watch Breaking Bad. God forbid he leaves the Church and his kid gets married in the temple. The Church undermines males at virtually every turn assuming the patriarch of the home.
Also, let's be honest here. How many LDS men have you see blubber and cry at the drop of a hat? It's like they have to act like a total pussy in order to act right. Very few men are genuinely masculine within the LDS church. It's bizarre.
eta: You're born and bred to serve others, to be a draft horse, and then act like a happy gelding about it all.
- Doc
I don’t think it’s unmanly for men to cry. Everything else, however, I agree with 100%.
Mak made a comment about the Church insisting that all relationships are 3 ways. This includes the man, wife, and God in the bedroom, which, in my opinion, is really f***ed up.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?
"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MDB.
Music is my drug of choice.
"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MDB _________________
Jesse Pinkman wrote:I don’t think it’s unmanly for men to cry. Everything else, however, I agree with 100%.
Mak made a comment about the Church insisting that all relationships are 3 ways. This includes the man, wife, and God in the bedroom, which, in my opinion, is really f***ed up.
Oh, I think men can cry. I'll see something by Pixar and my heart grows two sizes. I'm thinking of that weird ass crap Mormon men do when trying to evoke the spirit. The Eyring Effect. I dunno. Being weepy for the sake of being weepy is off putting.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Jesse Pinkman wrote:I don’t think it’s unmanly for men to cry. Everything else, however, I agree with 100%.
Mak made a comment about the Church insisting that all relationships are 3 ways. This includes the man, wife, and God in the bedroom, which, in my opinion, is really f***ed up.
Oh, I think men can cry. I'll see something by Pixar and my heart grows two sizes. I'm thinking of that weird ass ____ Mormon men do when trying to evoke the spirit. The Eyring Effect. I dunno. Being weepy for the sake of being weepy is off putting.
- Doc
OK. I understand where you're coming from. I agree that just crying for the sake of crying is off putting for both men and women.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?
"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MDB.
Music is my drug of choice.
"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MDB _________________
