The Problem is the Patriarchy

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_Kishkumen
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The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Writes Gina Colvin. Let’s say she is right. We know there are many problems, but it is fair to say that this is one of the fundamental problems. What to do? Gina advocates being more vociferous, more of an activist in opposition to Mormonism’s patriarchy. Only when Mormon women stand up and make themselves heard will much needed change occur.

I don’t mean to be a wet blanket, but I’m not buying it. Mormon women who agree to the fundamentals of Mormonism will not rise up en masse against the patriarchy. Why? Well, first of all, Mormonism IS patriarchy. Patriarchy is so fundamental to Mormonism that it is nearly impossible to disentangle them.

Mormonism is about the Father whose command is obediently followed by the Son, who gives all glory back to the Father. Sure, Mormonism vaguely gestures toward the existence of the Mother, or, more accurately, the mothers, being the polygamous wives of Elohim, but these mothers are unheralded, unexplicated, and generally subjugated to Father.

Mormonism is not only the worship of Father, the name by which He is addressed, it is also the worship of Father by fathers. Fathers are the priests who intercede with Father for all. The great heroes of Mormonism are fathers. Father Moses. Father Abraham. Father Lehi. Or sons. Nephi the dutiful son. Joseph Smith the virtuous and dutiful son.

The only way around this is a fundamental change to Mormonism. It will not do to point to Emma the Elect Lady or O, My Father lyrics. New revelation and new scripture are necessary. They will not come from today’s patriolatric priesthood bearers.

Mormonism needs schism more than it needs activists. The problem with Mormonism is actually progressive Mormons who think that the answer lies in reforming the LDS Church. Mormonism IS patriarchy. New revelation is required to change that. Such revelation is not coming from the patriarchs. It must come from schismatic matriarchs. Take courage, step out, and receive revelation.

The problem is the progressives.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Patriarchies are born out of necesity. Now that we're in a fairly progressive world if you're going to get men to work for you the way they do for their overlords it's incumbent on pro-matriocracy types to demonstrate in practical terms why that is.

Basically they have to market themselves to the workhorses of the current system and win their votes and confidence. How that's done is a mystery to me.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Jesse Pinkman
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Jesse Pinkman »

I don’t think that patriarchy will ever go away in Mormonism. However, I do see the very real possibility of the companion priesthood developed as part of the Relief Society being reinstated. If the RS was not considered an auxiliary, but reestablished as a companion priesthood for the women, it would do wonders in opening up true leadership opportunities for women.

ETA. If things were reorganized in this manner, then the auxiliaries could naturally be reorganized. The Primary and YW auxiliaries could fall under the RS Priesthood. The female missionaries could also fall under this category. There could be female mission presidents, district leaders, etc.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

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_Kishkumen
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Interesting, Doc. I would love to hear more about this.

Now, I don’t know which forms of schismatic Mormonism would be the most viable. But I do think that the LDS Church cannot reform itself in the way writers like Gina advocate. That’s why I encourage schism.

Schism in Mormonism is even less cool and less successful than third party politics in the US. Most schisms are very small. Most will fail.

But a very small percentage will not fail. Unfortunately, few people will take the risk of failing. But if enough of these progressives abandoned their false dreams and complicity with evil to step out and do their own thing, then maybe there would be a sizable schism—one large enough to have a better chance of lasting.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Physics Guy
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Physics Guy »

Lazara the despised progressive Mormon woman and the rich submissive wife Diva both died, and in the afterlife Diva had some regrets.

'Oh Mother Sarah,' she called out to the matriarch, 'I have five sisters. Send Lazara to them, with a revelation that women are not lesser beings than men.'

Sarah replied, 'They have their own minds. Let them listen to them.'

'No, Mother Sarah,' said Diva, 'but if someone is sent to them with a new revelation, they will believe.'

Then Mother Sarah said to her, 'If they don't understand from their own experience that women are equal, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'
_Jesse Pinkman
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Jesse Pinkman »

One simple realignment in distinction could make a huge difference. I don’t see this as very far off.
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MDB.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MDB
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_Kishkumen
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Jesse Pinkman wrote:I don’t think that patriarchy will ever go away in Mormonism. However, I do see the very real possibility of the companion priesthood developed as part of the Relief Society being reinstated. If the RS was not considered an auxiliary, but reestablished as a companion priesthood for the women, it would do wonders in opening up true leadership opportunities for women.

ETA. If things were reorganized in this manner, then the auxiliaries could naturally be reorganized. The Primary and YW auxiliaries could fall under the RS Priesthood. The female missionaries could also fall under this category. There could be female mission presidents, district leaders, etc.


Could be! And that may be enough for many people. After all, even less is already plenty for most.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Kishkumen »

Physics Guy wrote:Lazara the despised progressive Mormon woman and the rich submissive wife Diva both died, and in the afterlife Diva had some regrets.

'Oh Mother Sarah,' she called out to the matriarch, 'I have five sisters. Send Lazara to them, with a revelation that women are not lesser beings than men.'

Sarah replied, 'They have their own minds. Let them listen to them.'

'No, Mother Sarah,' said Diva, 'but if someone is sent to them with a new revelation, they will believe.'

Then Mother Sarah said to her, 'If they don't understand from their own experience that women are equal, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'


And that is precisely my point. The goal should not be convincing those who will not listen. The goal should be living in accordance with your convictions. Progressive Mormons try to convince others of what they lack the conviction to do themselves.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_MsJack
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _MsJack »

There's a church down the street from me that I kind of like. Good preaching, nice assortment of classes, decent children's ministry. They are literally a five-minute drive down the road, and I'm moving into their town next month, so I'm about to be even closer to them than I am now. They are a growing church and are about to open a new location in another township. What they do, they seem to be doing well.

And I'd rather keep driving 30-40 minutes to the Evangelical Covenant Church or to Willow Creek Community Church, because I need to attend a church that is at least attempting to respect women.

The LDS church isn't going to make any changes in this area unless women start voting with their feet. Until then, they will just point to the women still attending and say, "They're still here, so it can't be all that bad." Stop giving your time, tithes, and talents to organizations that don't treat you as full human beings (and yes, I think the non-ordination of women stems from a thousands-year-old tradition of not treating women as fully human, even if that's not what modern-day practitioners of it mean by it anymore).

Then again, I guess I don't really "get" liberal Mormons anymore. You wish that the Mormon church ordained women, was more loving and accepting of LGBT people, and would de-emphasize some of Mormonism's stranger doctrines like polygamy?

Well, damn, if only there were a branch of Mormonism that already did that.

Progressive Mormonism doesn't need a new schism so much as it needs progressive Mormons to wake up and support the "schism" that's already much closer to the change they want to see.

I realize progressive Mormons get tired of conservative Mormons telling them things like, "If you don't like it, then leave!" But . . . the conservative Mormons are kind of right.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (?????????) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Dr Exiled »

I agree that the desired reform will only come when more people leave. The Mormon salesmen will become desparate for the lost tithing streams if enough leave ..... and then cometh the revelation giving equality.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
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