Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote: All you do in these posts is tell us how terrible these laws are for people who molest children. Your posts are irrelevant to the topic of child safety.


A Massachusetts mayor admitted, "I am a politician saying that when we impose these measures, I and my colleagues across America are failing at keeping people safe on this issue"
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:Maybe it's because those of us who are parents don't rely on laws to keep our children safe. All you do in these posts is tell us how terrible these laws are for people who molest children. Your posts are irrelevant to the topic of child safety.


When did I say laws are terrible for child molesters? Please don't misrepresent my words, it is not nice.

MeDotOrg wrote:Agreed, innocent people can be snared by the current system. So what do you think we should do?


It is clear we can't do anything, most people won't listen.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Maybe it's because those of us who are parents don't rely on laws to keep our children safe. All you do in these posts is tell us how terrible these laws are for people who molest children. Your posts are irrelevant to the topic of child safety.


Not sure how conclusions like "The national panel data do not show a significant decrease in the rate of rape or the arrest rate for sexual abuse after implementation of a registry or access to the registry via the Internet" are irrelevant to the topic of child safety. Can you please explain.

I see it as the government's failure to protect children. I want a government that effectively protects children. Yes, parents shouldn't rely on laws, but the government is suppose to help.

and when did I say laws are terrible for child molesters? Please don't misrepresent my words, it is not nice.


Wait! Wasn't it you who posted a parade of horribles about how terrible sex offender laws were for the poor victims convicted of child abuse? Of course, you didn't want to call them child molesters, you called them attractive young teachers. I get that you don't want to acknowledge 14 year olds as children, but legally, when it comes to consent, that's what they are. So, no, I'm not misrepresenting your words. I don't think you fully understand the consequences of your words.

Now, let's think about public sex registries for a minute. What they are supposed to do is alert parents with children to the fact that an offender is living in their neighborhood so they can take actions to reduce the opportunity for the person on the registry to molest their children. If we wanted to test whether that works, we couldn't just look at changes in overall rates of arrest. We'd have to compare the rate of molestations of children whose parents used the registry with those who didn't. The study you quote didn't do that. Have you found any study that evaluates whether use of a public registry by parents affects the odds that their child will be molested?

But you didn't just limit your criticism to registries -- you are criticizing sex offender laws. You know, the ones that actually result in people going to jail. Are you claiming that locking up someone found guilty of child molestation doesn't protect children by taking that person out of circulation, at least for some period of time?

On the general topic of sex offender laws, you've been a one-note samba, with the note being: these laws are unfair to people convicted under them. Having apparently not gotten agreement with your point of view with that argument, now you've switched to child safety. But nothing in your posts has promoted child safety. It's perfectly reasonable to argue that, because public sex-offender registries have little, if any benefit, to children and impose a tremendous social cost on those listed, that we should get rid of them. It's entirely a different matter to argue that people who don't adopt your point of view on sex-offender registries (which is we should either dump them or severely limit them), they don't care about child safety.

What every parent knows is that laws cannot stop someone from molesting their child. The laws that are on the books can't keep their children safe. What can is educating their children and acting as a responsible parent. The laws can only punish after the child has been molested. And parents who take the time to educate themselves understand that the greatest risk to their child is not some guy on the registry living in their neighborhood. It's family, and friends, and teachers, and scout masters, and clergy -- adults who have regular access to their children.

So far, all I've seen you argue for is eliminating or limiting the use of sex-offender registries and reducing the scope of sex offender laws. Exactly how is either supposed to make children safer?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote: All you do in these posts is tell us how terrible these laws are for people who molest children. Your posts are irrelevant to the topic of child safety.


A Massachusetts mayor admitted, "I am a politician saying that when we impose these measures, I and my colleagues across America are failing at keeping people safe on this issue"


You use quotes from authority figures the same way that LDS folks used quotes from the Book of Mormon -- you treat them as some kind of absolute truth. Why should I care what some mayor somewhere say? Mayors have no special expertise in sex offender laws. There are hundreds of thousands of Mayors, and they all say stuff.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _Res Ipsa »

So, there is some research that has been done on the effect of sex offender notification on the behavior of parents. It doesn't appear there is a great deal of research in this area, but some studies have found evidence that parents who are notified that there is a sex offender living in the neighborhood take more protective measures on behalf of their children than parents who received no such notification.

This research found, as did Beck et al.’s (2004), a statistically significant relationship between receiving notification about a high-risk sex offender and the adoption of protective behaviors undertaken to protect children; specifically, notified parents adopt more behaviors to protect their children than do non-notified parents.


http://www.atsa.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_EAllusion
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _EAllusion »

Res Ipsa wrote:So, there is some research that has been done on the effect of sex offender notification on the behavior of parents. It doesn't appear there is a great deal of research in this area, but some studies have found evidence that parents who are notified that there is a sex offender living in the neighborhood take more protective measures on behalf of their children than parents who received no such notification.

This research found, as did Beck et al.’s (2004), a statistically significant relationship between receiving notification about a high-risk sex offender and the adoption of protective behaviors undertaken to protect children; specifically, notified parents adopt more behaviors to protect their children than do non-notified parents.


http://www.atsa.com/sites/default/files ... cation.pdf

I would like to see that controlled against someone knocking door to door reminding them sex offenders might live in their neighborhood.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:Wait! Wasn't it you who posted a parade of horribles about how terrible sex offender laws were for the poor victims convicted of child abuse? Of course, you didn't want to call them child molesters, you called them attractive young teachers. I get that you don't want to acknowledge 14 year olds as children, but legally, when it comes to consent, that's what they are. So, no, I'm not misrepresenting your words. I don't think you fully understand the consequences of your words.

My goodness!!!!! In other threads (unrelated to to this one) I said I don't believe teachers should get arrested for having consensual sex with 16 and 17 year olds. The age of consent in many US states is 16 and 17 years. As for the letter published in psychology today, the woman said she was 16 at the time. The point of sharing the letter is because I believe sex offender registry should only be for child molesters. Rape and inappropriate behavior are not the same thing!!! Jesus Christ! no wonder why there is no hope for our country! You keep terribly misrepresenting me. What the Hell is wrong with you people?

Res Ipsa wrote: I don't think you fully understand the consequences of your words.

Why? and do you feel the same for Analytics, EAllusion, Xenophon, Chap, and others? What about law scholars, doctors, psychologists? Chap said he considers 16 year olds adults. No consequence for that?

Res Ipsa wrote:You use quotes from authority figures the same way that LDS folks used quotes from the Book of Mormon -- you treat them as some kind of absolute truth.

I also shared peer-reviewed research that you ignored. When I have the time I will give you more studies, but I don't have time at this moment for the rest of your nonsense.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _EAllusion »

You use quotes from authority figures the same way that LDS folks used quotes from the Book of Mormon -- you treat them as some kind of absolute truth. Why should I care what some mayor somewhere say? Mayors have no special expertise in sex offender laws. There are hundreds of thousands of Mayors, and they all say stuff.

Lol. I think you might be overestimating the number of mayors.
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:
This research found, as did Beck et al.’s (2004), a statistically significant relationship between receiving notification about a high-risk sex offender and the adoption of protective behaviors undertaken to protect children; specifically, notified parents adopt more behaviors to protect their children than do non-notified parents.

Why are you quoting studies out of context? Your study also says

The present research project did not discover any significant relationship between notification and self-protective behaviors, nor did the research of Anderson and Sample (2008), Beck et al. (2004), or Caputo and Brodsky (2004). Although Beck et al. and the present study both found that notified residents undertake more protective behaviors on behalf of their children than do non-notified residents, these results must be interpreted with caution
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Re: Proof Offender laws are not protecting children

Post by _EAllusion »

Res Ipsa wrote:
DoubtingThomas wrote:"Nobody Cares" about child safety. I thought there were parents that would find it interesting to know how terrible sex offender laws really are.


Maybe it's because those of us who are parents don't rely on laws to keep our children safe. All you do in these posts is tell us how terrible these laws are for people who molest children. Your posts are irrelevant to the topic of child safety.

Sex offender laws capture a hell of a lot more people than those who molest children. And the negative effects of punishments on the convicted are relevant to determining the net benefit of a legal penalty. This is why we don't execute litterers.

If sex offender registeries, or rather the restrictions associated with them, do little to deter sex offenses, but cause substantial damage to people on those registries disproportionate to their crime, that is a reason to question them.
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