Why the AR-15 is DIFFERENT

[_Markk]

Markkk you could take a hypothetical 19 year old, who has never played a violent game, watched a violent movie in his life, who has great parents and an excellent family life...and give him schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and you've still got the same potential for gun violence, a mass shooting so long as this person is armed.

It seems to me that you avoid addressing the weapons issue repeatedly. You cannot avoid the object that is the very centerpiece of and the tool that is used in carrying out these mass shootings.

Who's avoiding it, we are discussing the issue, disagreement is not avoidance.
The author in the OP does has no idea what she is saying in regards to the AR-15, in that she is comparing it to a 9mm, when in fact you can buy a 9mm AR-15? Do you understand that? The premise of this thread is skewed and really ignorant of the issue.

Alcohol and cars kill far more people than mass shootings...And you don't even have to be mentally unhinged to kill folks that way. How many people are killed by guns becasue of alcohol...that wouldn't have been killed if sober? Why not go after alcohol? It is the same thing isn't it?

They reality is that we are all different, and we want and expect different things from life. And some are willing to give up freedoms that others will not.

[_Jersey Girl]

The perfect storm happens when you take that person who has varying environmental factors and arm them with an AR 15.

Why do you avoid that part of the equation?

I am not avoiding that at all, I get your point...but..there are millions that own guns, including AR-15's that don't shoot people. There are millions that watch violent movies and don't kill people. Millions of people don't want the constitution rights to bear arms infringed, just as millions don't want the 1st amendment rights infringed.

Do you believe the AR-15 is the problem, or guns in general?[/quote]

Guns in general? I have responsible gun owners in my family, some NRA members, and a shooting range on my property. No, not guns in general.

In other words, if the AR-15 is banned, would that stop gun violence? If no, after it is banned, should the government keep taking other models away until when? Do you want a total ban?

I don't know how many posts I've made on this topic. I swear, I don't know why I post here at all.

No, I'm not in favor of a total ban. I would be in favor of:

1. A health care system that doesn't reduce Medicaid to the point where it compromises mental health services.

2. An increase in SRO's per school, though I don't know what would consitute adequate coverage.

3. Metal detectors and more secure entry ways, including improved identification measures in schools (colleges included) and early childhood programs.

4. A reinstatement back of the 1994 AWB for starters. Leave it there and evaluate moving forward.

5. Eliminate existing gaps in background checks.

6. LE* and FBI** doing their jobs.

*Sheriff in this case had 39 calls on this kid.
**FBI failed to follow through on a Jan/2018 tip on him.

If I think of anything else I'll make additional comment.

[_Jersey Girl]

Markkk you could take a hypothetical 19 year old, who has never played a violent game, watched a violent movie in his life, who has great parents and an excellent family life...and give him schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and you've still got the same potential for gun violence, a mass shooting so long as this person is armed.

It seems to me that you avoid addressing the weapons issue repeatedly. You cannot avoid the object that is the very centerpiece of and the tool that is used in carrying out these mass shootings.

Who's avoiding it, we are discussing the issue, disagreement is not avoidance.
The author in the OP does has no idea what she is saying in regards to the AR-15, in that she is comparing it to a 9mm, when in fact you can buy a 9mm AR-15? Do you understand that? The premise of this thread is skewed and really ignorant of the issue.

Alcohol and cars kill far more people than mass shootings...And you don't even have to be mentally unhinged to kill folks that way. How many people are killed by guns becasue of alcohol...that wouldn't have been killed if sober? Why not go after alcohol? It is the same thing isn't it?

Video games, violent movies, poor parenting and now it's alcohol. How many times are you going to sidetrack away from the mass shootings we're discussing?

Listen, sidetrack with someone else, Markkkkkk.

They reality is that we are all different, and we want and expect different things from life. And some are willing to give up freedoms that others will not.

We all expect different things from life? Ten days ago 17 people expected to HAVE a life.

[_Kevin Graham]

I am not avoiding that at all, I get your point...but..there are millions that own guns, including AR-15's that don't shoot people.

Even if that were true, so what? Let's just let everyone have nuclear weapons because, there are tens of thousands of warheads owned by many nations and no one is killing people with them.

There are millions that watch violent movies and don't kill people.

And more importantly there are zero people who kill people because of violent movies. That's just a theory the religious folks come up with because they see this gun issue as an opportunity to push their BS religious agendas to make the world more "moral."

Millions of people don't want the constitution rights to bear arms infringed, just as millions don't want the 1st amendment rights infringed.

Banning the AR-15 and similar weapons doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. You don't understand the second amendment.

Do you believe the AR-15 is the problem, or guns in general?

Both.

In other words, if the AR-15 is banned, would that stop gun violence?

Of course not. Why do you ask such dumb questions? Its like you're saying, if we can pass a law that will guarantee no more gun violence, there is no need to pass any laws that would dramatically reduce gun violence.

If no, after it is banned, should the government keep taking other models away until when? Do you want a total ban?

Here you go again. So unless all crime is stopped dead in its tracks with a gun ban, the gun ban would be useless. Because less crime is not better than more crime. Only no crime is better than more crime?

[_Jersey Girl]

Markkkk I plan for this to be my last post to you on the topic. I don't dislike you at all. I find it more than difficult to discuss this issue with you. Just for the record (and anyone who has followed my posts over time knows this) as I said, I have responsible gun owners in my family, members of the NRA, I also have family members who are ACOA's (adult children of alcoholics), one recovering alcoholic, one suicide by gunshot wound to the head, mentally ill persons, and three recovering heroin addicts. None of those are me, though I did suffer depression years and years ago. Yep, those are all some of my people and I would describe all of them as good folks.

I have no doubt that substance and alcohol abuse has the potential to wreck families through generations into the future. I've seen it in the lives of my family members.

But we're talking about the mechanics of a mass shooting in Florida with a mental illness component that involved an AR-15.

I can tell you without question, that some of those student survivors are suffering from PTSD right this second. They'll suffer from it for years into the future and it will impact the trajectory of their lives. And while they are suffering, some of their parents will develop a type of post traumatic stress of their own on account of the roller coaster ride and constant state of high alert that will be their lives so long as their kids are suffering.

Mark, I lived through such a situation myself. In the case of the Florida shooting, we're talking about hundreds of young people and their parents.

I'll leave you with that and also leave you to discuss this topic with others. Someone has to be willing to embrace change, Mark.

[_Markk]

Markkkk I plan for this to be my last post to you on the topic. I don't dislike you at all. I find it more than difficult to discuss this issue with you. Just for the record (and anyone who has followed my posts over time knows this) as I said, I have responsible gun owners in my family, members of the NRA, I also have family members who are ACOA's (adult children of alcoholics), one recovering alcoholic, one suicide by gunshot wound to the head, mentally ill persons, and three recovering heroin addicts. None of those are me, though I did suffer depression years and years ago. Yep, those are all some of my people and I would describe all of them as good folks.

I have no doubt that substance and alcohol abuse has the potential to wreck families through generations into the future. I've seen it in the lives of my family members.

But we're talking about the mechanics of a mass shooting in Florida with a mental illness component that involved an AR-15.

I can tell you without question, that some of those student survivors are suffering from PTSD right this second. They'll suffer from it for years into the future and it will impact the trajectory of their lives. And while they are suffering, some of their parents will develop a type of post traumatic stress of their own on account of the roller coaster ride and constant state of high alert that will be their lives so long as their kids are suffering.

Mark, I lived through such a situation myself. In the case of the Florida shooting, we're talking about hundreds of young people and their parents.

I'll leave you with that and also leave you to discuss this topic with others. Someone has to be willing to embrace change, Mark.

I also have many if not most the above in my family, including heroin addicts, alcoholics, pot heads, TBM's, atheists, depression, and a suicide by gun shot (with my fathers ww2 gun). I have two brothers that are DAV..and one on permanent disability with PTSD. I understand all of that, I really do.

I just don't think you understand that an AR-15 is not the issue. It is like banning Coke, and not Pepsi to curb obesity.

This is not an assault weapon, yet fires the same round, at the same rate of speed (as fast as you can pull the trigger)... it can receive accessories just the same as a AR-15. This a mini-14 after accessories.

Even though I disagree...Doc...is the one with a valid argument...ban all guns. He understands that the AR-15 ban is nothing but a straw-man, maybe a start, but non the less it won't detour anyone that wants to do such a terrible thing.

[_Quasimodo]

I can tell you without question, that some of those student survivors are suffering from PTSD right this second. They'll suffer from it for years into the future and it will impact the trajectory of their lives. And while they are suffering, some of their parents will develop a type of post traumatic stress of their own on account of the roller coaster ride and constant state of high alert that will be their lives so long as their kids are suffering.

+1

17 people were killed, 14 were wounded and every child that attended that school lost their innocence forever.

[_Morley]

I just don't think you understand that an AR-15 is not the issue. It is like banning Coke, and not Pepsi to curb obesity.

No one here is suggesting that we should only ban the AR-15.

[_Kishkumen]

Why not ban the AR-15?

Law making is often as much as statement as it is a practical move. The emperor Diocletian issued a price edict in the Late Roman Empire. He did so not so much because he could actually police all of the prices--the empire lacked the requisite bureaucracy to do such a thing. The point of doing it is to communicate shared values with those who object to certain practices.

Banning the AR-15 a legit move. Will it solve all problems? No! Obviously not. But neither is it against the Constitution, and this is something conservative justices on Supreme Court have ruled on.

I don't see a reason not to do it--other than that it denies Smith & Wesson the chance to make money off of selling a certain military-grade weapon to civilians. There are many more positives than negatives here.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm going to identify clearly for you, why I have problems when I attempt to engage you on this topic. I'm going to enlarge the corresponding statements to make them stand out.

I also have many if not most the above in my family, including heroin addicts, alcoholics, pot heads, TBM's, atheists, depression, and a suicide by gun shot (with my fathers ww2 gun). I have two brothers that are DAV..and one on permanent disability with PTSD. I understand all of that, I really do.

I just don't think you understand that an AR-15 is not the issue. It is like banning Coke, and not Pepsi to curb obesity.

This is not an assault weapon, yet fires the same round, at the same rate of speed (as fast as you can pull the trigger)... it can receive accessories just the same as a AR-15. This a mini-14 after accessories.

Even though I disagree...Doc...is the one with a valid argument...ban all guns. He understands that the AR-15 ban is nothing but a straw-man, maybe a start, but non the less it won't detour anyone that wants to do such a terrible thing.

Previously, you asked me a series of questions. I answered them all. You never responded to them. Here are my answers (typos included):

No, I'm not in favor of a total ban. I would be in favor of:

1. A health care system that doesn't reduce Medicaid to the point where it compromises mental health services.

2. An increase in SRO's per school, though I don't know what would consitute adequate coverage.

3. Metal detectors and more secure entry ways, including improved identification measures in schools (colleges included) and early childhood programs.

4. A reinstatement back of the 1994 AWB for starters. Leave it there and evaluate moving forward.

5. Eliminate existing gaps in background checks.

6. LE* and FBI** doing their jobs.

*Sheriff in this case had 39 calls on this kid.
**FBI failed to follow through on a Jan/2018 tip on him.

If I think of anything else I'll make additional comment.

I am not promoting the banning of only the AR-15. I clearly stated that I am in favor of a return to the 1994 AWB (or something of that nature) that includes various weapons models and high capacity magazines.

And in your above here, Markkkk, you persist in carrying over the lone AR-15 issue.

I am not opposed to gun ownership. I am convinced that we need to pull back on just what weapons are permissible and including the high capacity mags. Why in the hell does anyone need 30 shots to do a job when they should be able to stop an intruder in 10 if need be?

The answer (in my view) is that if you can't do it in 10 then you have no business owning a gun for personal/home protection. A gun in my own hands wouldn't protect me in the least so I don't have the 10-30 shots to do it to start with. I don't have even ONE shot.

If I can go without a gun to protect me, why can't folks go without their AR's, etc? What the hell are people so afraid of?

Where I live, all I need is a way to deter a potential intruder long enough to get cops out here. I already have a couple or three ways to do that on my own without JB at home and it doesn't involve a weapon.

Now I can see where a gun enthusiast enjoys shooting targets with their AR-15 or other weapons. I get that it's fun. I've done it. I've shot targets with various model weapons and also with archery equipment.

But let's not act like anone needs an AR for personal protection because that's just BS.

We're talking about ways to prevent mass shootings. I have effectively put my cards on the table and I have yet to see you come up with an alternative strategy. It's not useful for me to go around in circles with you here and particularly when you ignore what I've stated in favor of your own personal monologue.

I need to be done here. I am sick and tired of repeating myself.