Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast

[_Meadowchik]

Furthermore, Dan casually pleads that differing stories are event-affirming, yet he fails to point out that the church excluded all but one account in its canon. And the included version was chosen instead of the earliest and the only one in Joseph Smith's own hand.

[_grindael]

I don't think B.H. Roberts would have known about it, especially since he and Fielding Smith didn't get along as I recall...

[_Shulem]

I enjoyed all three presentations.

I can certainly see why Joseph Fielding Smith hid up the 1832 account of the first vision because it casts doubt on the credibility of the 1838 version. The 1832 account was not faith promoting. It's clear that Joseph Smith moved with the times and altered his story to suit his needs and changing theology. Joseph Fielding Smith must have known this.

[_Grudunza]

I don't think B.H. Roberts would have known about it, especially since he and Fielding Smith didn't get along as I recall...

BH died long before the incident of Fielding Smith removing the journal pages, didn’t he?

[_Stem]

Last night I drove up to my father-in-law's to toss a few thousand pounds of hay around. While driving I listened intently to this episode as the first vision stories have been a little on my mind as of late (thanks in part to Peterson). I got about half way through. I want say this is a very good episode. I'm often turned off by John's style but if he did more of this I'd listen more. Having Sandra there was awesome, being a living first hand witness of the coverup. I honestly wish she had more focus on that part and shared it more explicitly. The lie that the 1970 piece somehow absolves the church of a coverup is just plain stupid. Johnny your contributions were very good, i'm eager to listen further.

Anyway, thanks for getting on this episode and linking it.

[_Stem]

BH died long before the incident of Fielding Smith removing the journal pages, didn’t he?

I think that's the story. BH died in 1833

The tear out was guestimated to be in the mid-1900s:

Manuscript evidence suggests that these excisions took place in the mid-twentieth century. A tear on the third leaf, which evidently occurred during its excision, was probably mended at the time. This tear was mended with clear cellophane tape, which was invented in 1930. The three leaves of the history certainly had been removed by 1965, when they were described as “cut out,” although they were archived together with the letterbook.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ource-note
(see source notes)

It's possible it was torn out in BH's liftetime, though. It does seem like Joseph Fielding didn't like BH and wouldn't have given him notice of it if JFS was aware of the account back then. But I"m guessing someone knew about it back that far. Just don't knkow that it was JFS.

[_grindael]

It does seem like Joseph Fielding didn't like BH and wouldn't have given him notice of it if JFS was aware of the account back then.

This.

[_grindael]

I'm positive that others knew about it, like George A. Smith (the historian). They poured over all those documents when writing Joseph Smith's history.

Fielding Smith was Assistant Church Historian in 1906. He could have stumbled upon it between then and the early 30's, (one of the pages was torn and fixed), and then sometime after he became Church Historian in 1921 he hid up the letterbook. Others may have learned of it, so he tore out the pages. All speculation, I know.

[_grindael]

What's interesting is that Orson Hyde produced a pamphlet in German (in 1842) with an account of the claimed First Vision.

But since the beginning these "apostles" knew the story that Joseph was telling from the beginning, that when he FIRST prayed, he was answered by an ANGEL, who told him what to do. This was the story that was told by Joseph and retold by those early missionaries like Orson Hyde.

In his 1842 Pamphlet, Hyde also stated that Joseph was beaten and assaulted by numerous people BEFORE he left Palmyra. These embellishments were common with them, and shows that they had no problem making things up to bolster Smith's credibility. Of course, they then would know that Smith was doing the same thing.

[_Kishkumen]

Having listened to two of the three, I just want to congratulate grindael on a fine job!