Liberal End-Game

[_moksha]

The endpoint for conservatives is when the second to the last oligarch left in the game lands on super hotel-laden Boardwalk.

[_Brackite]

I don't consider myself a liberal, but I do hope that the Democrats take back the House this November. The Republican Party of 2018, which is now the Party of Trump is not the same Republican Party of Reagan and Bush 41. If Republicans retain the House, they will continue to try to make deep cuts to Medicaid. Plus Trump's Republican Party continues to deny the scientific evidence in support of man-made climate change. President Trump is withdrawing the United States out of the Paris Climate Agreement.

The Senate map this year is not that favorable to the Democrats. There are five Democrats that are up for reelection from states where Trump won by double digits. However, I am really hoping that the Democrats will be able to pick of Flake's Senate seat in Arizona here. Moderate Democratic Senator Sinema is running for Senator, and I will be voting for her here.

[_honorentheos]

The Democrat end game is certainly to gain as much political power as possible through any means available.

I call BS on that. Republicans have given up virtually all forbearance in the pursuit of political power, but that is not equally true of the Democrats or 3rd parties. There is something to be said for the varying civic attitudes of the people who make up the political parties in the US. Not everyone is equally ends justify the means-y.

I thought about how to word that when I wrote it, and if "any means available" opened the door to asserting they were willing to behave in criminal ways if it served their purposes. And I came down on the side of using it because while the term is probably bookended by the individual ethics of the people involved, I don't inherently think that Democrats are more ethical than Republicans. The DNC certainly didn't do a great job holding the moral high ground this last election.

There are elements associated with Republicans that I do think are willing to not only venture into the dankness of unethical practice more so than the elements of the Democrats are willing to do so. But there are those on both sides who believe they are fighting the ultimate evil in the other side, and once one holds that view the ends are perceived as justifying the means.

All that is to say, I stand by my statement.

[_EAllusion]

I thought about how to word that when I wrote it, and if "any means available" opened the door to asserting they were willing to behave in criminal ways if it served their purposes. And I came down on the side of using it because while the term is probably bookended by the individual ethics of the people involved, I don't inherently think that Democrats are more ethical than Republicans. The DNC certainly didn't do a great job holding the moral high ground this last election.

There are elements associated with Republicans that I do think are willing to not only venture into the dankness of unethical practice more so than the elements of the Democrats are willing to do so. But there are those on both sides who believe they are fighting the ultimate evil in the other side, and once one holds that view the ends are perceived as justifying the means.

All that is to say, I stand by my statement.

I don't think the options are just either criminal acts or sequeky clean ethical behavior. I think Republicans are far more willing than Democrats to play Constitutional hardball, as evidenced by he fact that this is literally what has happened for years now, and it's not even close.

I don't think there's anything about one's tax policy preferences that speaks to how willing a person is to break democratic norms in pursuit of policy goals, but I do think there is an obvious asymmetry between how current Republican culture and Democratic culture treats the civic norms. It is simply not the case that everyone believes that everything that is technically legal is on the table.

Let's put it this way. Which of the two parties takes as one of its most important issues creating laws with sham justifications that make it difficult for people to vote for the other party? Note: it isn't both. Where is the Democratic North Carolina? Why isn't Oregon a Democratic North Carolina?

[_Some Schmo]

All that is to say, I stand by my statement.

Yeah, I have to disagree as well. I think I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but if the Democrats were willing to do anything, they'd win a lot more elections.

[_Some Schmo]

Liberal End-Game

I have to wonder how many people on this board actually consider themselves liberal.

I realize that if you support Drumpf, you believe that anyone who doesn't love Drumpf must be a liberal, but that's just stupid, which is why I take so few Drumpf supporters seriously. They aren't serious people; not serious and informed, anyway.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well. I think I'd like to see universal public education for all. Universal health care. Guaranteed housing and utilities. No guns. Liberal personal drug use. Universal basic income. Food rations. If you make over $36k/year your income will be seized and redistributed each according to their needs. No personal cars outside of a handful of people. Lots of endowments for the Arts. And of course limited babies to each household, of which, you need a permit.

DJT should be arrested, "tried," and then sent to a people's labor camp.

- Doc

[Guest]

All that is to say, I stand by my statement.

Yeah, I have to disagree as well. I think I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but if the Democrats were willing to do anything, they'd win a lot more elections.

I said by any means available. What one views as being available is contingent on a number of factors. That's different, in my opinion, than saying someone is willing to do anything at all to accomplish their aims.

And frankly I think that Democrats are willing to push boundaries to win. They may be bringing a knife to a gun fight in some ways, but they are certainly willing to use the knife.

ETA: To be clear, I personally stand much closer to the Democrat side on most issues with a few exceptions involving finance and the use of military force. I believe government has a critical role to play in maintaining what I believe is the enlightenment vision of a democratic society as I spelled out for ajax in a past thread, here: viewtopic.php?p=1124379#p1124379

But I don't view Republicans as inherently unethical, or at least expotentially more so than Democrats. Gingrich and those who have followed in his steps are definitely a breed apart when it comes to their willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve a particular aim but that isn't inherent to the identity of the Republican party itself.

[_Brackite]

Sean Hannity lately over the radio has been telling his listeners that this is the most important mid-term elections in their lifetime, and that they need to vote Republican for Senate and House because Democrats want to impeach Trump and keep Obamacare. But the Obamacare mandate already got repealed last December when Congressional Republicans passed their tax cut legislation. What Hannity really wants, and what Republicans will try to do again if they retain the House and gain a couple of Senate seats is to completely eliminate the Medicaid expansion under the ACA.

[_Some Schmo]

But I don't view Republicans as inherently unethical, or at least expotentially more so than Democrats. Gingrich and those who have followed in his steps are definitely a breed apart when it comes to their willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve a particular aim but that isn't inherent to the identity of the Republican party itself.

I haven't noticed Democrats engaging in falsehoods and hypocrisy as their main form of communication like I have the GOP. It's tangential to their aims, not their primary strategy.

I've never considered the Democrats my party, so perhaps I just don't pay them as much attention. But my instinct it to assume that the GOP is so much more obvious about it, they are the worse offenders (by a very long shot).

by the way, I am conscious of the idea that because I once considered myself Republican that I am likely far more focused and annoyed by them than the Democrats. I see it as a similar phenomenon to me being more critical of Mormonism than other religions because it was part of my life. I will always hold special resentment for organizations that I belong to and find out all they did was BS me.

I just find it incredible that other people who consider themselves conservatives are loyal to this BS party. They either don't know what conservative means or just don't care.