Dying For Montenegro

[_Maksutov]

We can negotiate different treaties. There's a process. Our "representatives" are supposed to treat this as one of their official duties.

[_MeDotOrg]

I'd like to say some general things about alliances. The United States does not need Montenegro for its defense. Montenegro would definitely appreciate the help of the United States. So it's an unequal relationship, right?

Yes it's unequal in regards to each other sizes and certainly the US need not fear other countries invading as Montenegro might, but right now the largest aggression from Russia towards NATO has been directed at the US with huge success.

If you look at the relationship as bilateral zero-sum game, we are on the short end of the stick. But an organization like NATO helps prevent local conflicts from flaring into major conflicts. Without NATO, what would have happened to the residents of Kosovo? When the strong get together to protect the weak, that makes aggressor nations think twice.

The US is not really on the short end of the stick. IT's not costing the US and other countries much if anything to agree to defend each other. As you say the purpose is to avoid aggression and being the largest military alliance by far, no country will invade any NATO country as long as they know NATO members like the US are dead serious in defending all members. It's why Russia is going hard core in cyber attacks and trying to manipulate the populations of NATO countries. It's why they really went hard at getting Trump elected and other data points that suggest they have some control over Trump.

There is a price for coming to the defense of our allies. Ultimately, there is a much greater price to pay if we do noting to invest in a world where the strong do not prey upon the weak.

So far there has not been any price because of having an alliance, but if there was no NATO after the Soviet Union fell I would say Russia would have much more control of eastern Europe then they do now, and letting aggressor dictators have more power will eventually come back to hurt the West. If all the world had western democracies you would have no real wars going on right now. The promotion of western democracies have made the world more free with less war and conflict.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. My point is that looking at a single country like Montenegro and asking' is it worth it?' is the binary, zero-sum game way of looking at it, and I think it is the wrong way. When I say there is a price to pay, I think the price of the alliance is worth it.

[_Chap]

... an organization like NATO helps prevent local conflicts from flaring into major conflicts. ...

And for a trading economy which benefits hugely from a peaceful and law-governed world, that is worth a lot. Please try to learn something from history: other nations than the US have found it hugely worth their while to spend large amounts of money keep the peace on a much wider scale than their immediate neighbours.

It's cheaper by far in the long run.

A poem from the past of another nation:

“Oh, where are you going to, all you Big Steamers,
With England's own coal, up and down the salt seas?”
“We are going to fetch you your bread and your butter,
Your beef, pork, and mutton, eggs, apples, and cheese.”

“And where will you fetch it from, all you Big Steamers,
And where shall I write you when you are away?”
“We fetch it from Melbourne, Quebec, and Vancouver.
Address us at Hobart, Hong-kong, and Bombay.”

“But if anything happened to all you Big Steamers,
And suppose you was wrecked up and down the salt sea?”
“Why, then you'd have no coffee or bacon for breakfast,
And you'd have no muffins or toast for your tea.”

“Then I'll pray for fine weather for all you Big Steamers
For little blue billows and breezes so soft.”
“Oh, billows and breezes don't bother Big Steamers:
We're iron below and steel-rigging aloft.”

“Then I'll build a new lighthouse for all you Big Steamers,
With plenty wise pilots to pilot you through.”
“Oh, the Channel's as bright as a ball-room already,
And pilots are thicker than pilchards at Looe.”

“Then what can I do for you, all you Big Steamers,
Oh, what can I do for your comfort and good?”
“Send out your big warships to watch your big waters,
That no one may stop us from bringing you food.

For the bread that you eat and the biscuits you nibble,
The sweets that you suck and the joints that you carve,
They are brought to you daily by All Us Big Steamers
And if any one hinders our coming you'll starve!”

[_Maksutov]

... an organization like NATO helps prevent local conflicts from flaring into major conflicts. ...

And for a trading economy which benefits hugely from a peaceful and law-governed world, that is worth a lot. Please try to learn something from history: other nations than the US have found it hugely worth their while to spend large amounts of money keep the peace on a much wider scale than their immediate neighbours.

It's cheaper by far in the long run.

A poem from the past of another nation:

“Oh, where are you going to, all you Big Steamers,
With England's own coal, up and down the salt seas?”
“We are going to fetch you your bread and your butter,
Your beef, pork, and mutton, eggs, apples, and cheese.”

“And where will you fetch it from, all you Big Steamers,
And where shall I write you when you are away?”
“We fetch it from Melbourne, Quebec, and Vancouver.
Address us at Hobart, Hong-kong, and Bombay.”

“But if anything happened to all you Big Steamers,
And suppose you was wrecked up and down the salt sea?”
“Why, then you'd have no coffee or bacon for breakfast,
And you'd have no muffins or toast for your tea.”

“Then I'll pray for fine weather for all you Big Steamers
For little blue billows and breezes so soft.”
“Oh, billows and breezes don't bother Big Steamers:
We're iron below and steel-rigging aloft.”

“Then I'll build a new lighthouse for all you Big Steamers,
With plenty wise pilots to pilot you through.”
“Oh, the Channel's as bright as a ball-room already,
And pilots are thicker than pilchards at Looe.”

“Then what can I do for you, all you Big Steamers,
Oh, what can I do for your comfort and good?”
“Send out your big warships to watch your big waters,
That no one may stop us from bringing you food.

For the bread that you eat and the biscuits you nibble,
The sweets that you suck and the joints that you carve,
They are brought to you daily by All Us Big Steamers
And if any one hinders our coming you'll starve!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbtgRa4B-6U

[_Quasimodo]

The battle for Monte Casino occurred during the second world war. There are many examples, but this one just came to mind.

It was a monastery on the top of a small mountain in South central Italy near Naples. It was held by German forces and needed to be taken for the allied troops to force Germany out of Italy.

The monastery had little or nothing to offer the Allies other than it's strategic position. However, it's position was vital. The Allies took it after a long, violent battle with many losses. It helped the Allies to win the war.

This is how we should think of Montenegro.

[_Kishkumen]

Ultimately, there is a much greater price to pay if we do not invest in a world where the strong do not prey upon the weak.

YES!

Thank you!

The isolationist’s and war profiteer’s false economy is to wait until after the conflict begins to invest in peace.

[_MeDotOrg]

Ultimately, there is a much greater price to pay if we do noting to invest in a world where the strong do not prey upon the weak.

That's a nice sentiment, but that's just not reality in any meaningful sense when it come to human nature. No matter how many norms one creates they begin to collapse once a standard is created. The strong and/or clever will always find a workaround to ensure they get theirs. Utopia and, really, fairness just isn't going to happen.

- Doc

I'm not utopian, but I am anti-dystopian. Believing that 'strong and clever will always find a workaround' sounds like you're saying they will always win. Nature abhors a vacuum. If the United States abdicates its leadership in the world, something else will move in. If you think we can withdraw to our shores and make the world go away, I do not think that is possible in the 21st Century.

Can an alliance like NATO become calcified and unuseful? Absolutely. And entropy is something that needs to be fought. But I think the idea of disengagement without consequence is also not reality. It made me think of Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Montenegro is like a Trade Unionist or a Communist.

[_Themis]

First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Montenegro is like a Trade Unionist or a Communist.

Exactly. While the US is not perfect, it may be the first world dominate power not to want to dominate the world militarily. That is not true of past powers, and I think guys like Putin foresee a future, even if centuries away, with Russia ruling the world. I suspect China's leaders may have the same kind of idea about China.

[_MeDotOrg]

A poem from the past of another nation:

“Oh, where are you going to, all you Big Steamers,
With England's own coal, up and down the salt seas?”
“We are going to fetch you your bread and your butter,
Your beef, pork, and mutton, eggs, apples, and cheese.”

“And where will you fetch it from, all you Big Steamers,
And where shall I write you when you are away?”
“We fetch it from Melbourne, Quebec, and Vancouver.
Address us at Hobart, Hong-kong, and Bombay.”

“But if anything happened to all you Big Steamers,
And suppose you was wrecked up and down the salt sea?”
“Why, then you'd have no coffee or bacon for breakfast,
And you'd have no muffins or toast for your tea.”

“Then I'll pray for fine weather for all you Big Steamers
For little blue billows and breezes so soft.”
“Oh, billows and breezes don't bother Big Steamers:
We're iron below and steel-rigging aloft.”

“Then I'll build a new lighthouse for all you Big Steamers,
With plenty wise pilots to pilot you through.”
“Oh, the Channel's as bright as a ball-room already,
And pilots are thicker than pilchards at Looe.”

“Then what can I do for you, all you Big Steamers,
Oh, what can I do for your comfort and good?”
“Send out your big warships to watch your big waters,
That no one may stop us from bringing you food.

For the bread that you eat and the biscuits you nibble,
The sweets that you suck and the joints that you carve,
They are brought to you daily by All Us Big Steamers
And if any one hinders our coming you'll starve!”

A wonderful poem. When I say it aloud it sounds like it would make a great Doctor Seuss book.

[_Water Dog]

The US is not really on the short end of the stick. IT's not costing the US and other countries much if anything to agree to defend each other.

If that's not the silliest thing anybody has said so far...