Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and Links

[_Rosebud]

Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened. I have agreed to help Mary as I can.

The plan is to make this a working document that can be added to as more is found. Omissions and evidence of missing evidence will also be included.

This thread is not intended to replace the other thread already discussing the lawsuit, but please post here to alert us to any documentation we may have missed.

[_cinepro]

For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

[_Rosebud]

For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

HI Cinepro,

I am trying to figure out where this information belongs in the Chronological List.

In the article you linked it says:

Berlin, who is an associate professor of psychiatric and behavioral sciences and director of the Sex and Gender Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University, is fascinated by shifting perceptions of sin — gluttony, he observes, was once categorized with other cardinal vices, but is now understood as more of a medical issue than a personal failing.

Do we have any indication Bill was treated by Berlin? Berlin was an associate professor at Johns Hopkins and Bill was treated at Johns Hopkins. That doesn't necessarily mean that Berlin treated Bill.

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

[_Mary]

List a work in progress. Been trying to add links and details..Page numbers etc. When it's finished I can delete repetitive links, but can't find a way to add references. Ugh.

[_cinepro]

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

On page 15 of Marion Smith's retelling, she says that while at John Hopkins,

[Bill Carstensen] failed a lie detector test when he denied molesting his children. Under sodium amythol, he stated "I know I've done things to my kids. I know my mother molested me."

But as described in that article, John Hopkins wasn't investigating crimes, they were providing therapy. I guess it's possible that they hooked up their patients to polygraphs and injected them with sodium amythol to get them to tell the truth, but I would need more context and documentation before I believe Marion Smith's account of what happened there.

[_Rosebud]

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

On page 15 of Marion Smith's retelling, she says that while at John Hopkins,

[Bill Carstensen] failed a lie detector test when he denied molesting his children. Under sodium amythol, he stated "I know I've done things to my kids. I know my mother molested me."

But as described in that article, John Hopkins wasn't investigating crimes, they were providing therapy. I guess it's possible that they hooked up their patients to polygraphs and injected them with sodium amythol to get them to tell the truth, but I would need more context and documentation before I believe Marion Smith's account of what happened there.

Thanks for finding that. That's relevant. It tells us something about Marion Smith, Marion Smith's reasoning, and Marion Smith's perceptions of what happened at John Hopkins.

[_Lemmie]

Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.

[_Mary]

Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.

Hi Lemmie,

I'm quoting contemporary sources available where I can.
Marion Smith is the grandmother of the children. She's an inside source.

It's up to you to decide the reliability of her witness.

The suit filed by the grandkids seems to tally with her account from what I can see.

If you have other first hand witnesses let me know.

I'm gradually adding other sources and newspaper articles where I can. Massimo Introvigne is included as a secondary source.

[_Mary]

Also, Lemmie, I haven't finished sourcing the documents.

[_Lemmie]

Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.

Hi Lemmie,

I'm quoting contemporary sources available where I can.
Marion Smith is the grandmother of the children. She's an inside source.

It's up to you to decide the reliability of her witness.

The suit filed by the grandkids seems to tally with her account from what I can see.

If you have other first hand witnesses let me know.

I'm gradually adding other sources and newspaper articles where I can. Massimo Introvigne is included as a secondary source.

Ok, thanks. You mentioned other first hand witnesses; in my opinion Marion Smith's account would not be considered as giving first hand testimony.