Doctor Steuss wrote:Water Dog wrote:Yes, but again, those are not ILLEGAL ALIENS. Those are legal immigrants. Nothing about this dialogue suggests that children of people who expressly broke immigration laws as set forth by Congress, as well as the states, and violated respective borders, should be treated as citizens.
I imagine that’s likely because prior to 1875 (after the 14th Amendment) there really wasn’t anything as far as immigration laws go. At the time, there were only some residency requirements for citizenship for those not born in the US.
I sincerely don’t see how any constitutional originalist can view this as not applying to those born to unlawful immigrants. Especially given the part of the debate wherein it was noted that those who are born to parents who are merely “subjects” of the US, receive citizenship. There were other parts wherein individuals were arguing that the Constitution didn’t need the amendment because the law had always been that you’re a citizen if you’re born here (if you were white, that is).
I don't know if it's bias, cognitive empathy issues, or some other shortcoming on my part, but I honestly have trouble seeing this as anything but "you're born here, congrats on your citizenship door prize." I know that there is another way of seeing it (as evidence by you, a few of my friends, etc.); I just can’t see it. I apologize, as I imagine it’s more than a little frustrating trying to dialogue with someone that simply can’t see the issue any other way.
If the standard is to be revised to reflect our current realities -- which, I think it probably should -- it would require in the least, an update to existing Statutes, and more likely a revision to the Clause.
Yeah, see, I'm interpreting it exactly the opposite. The context you point out works against you, in my opinion. The contemporaneous meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" didn't include dependents of those subject to a foreign jurisdiction who rejected U.S. laws.
The absence of said laws at the time doesn't change this. In essence you're arguing that a kind of open borders loose immigration policy existed at the time, so therefore, 14A was meant to facilitate this. But that's not what it was meant for at all. The two were and still are independent of one another. If people were lawfully immigrating in 1868 by simply getting on a boat or walking across the border, then that was lawful for the time. The law has since changed, and it makes no sense that 14A would consider aliens who are in breach of the law to be subject to our jurisdiction.
Other context that matters is the fact that at this time women couldn't vote, blacks couldn't vote, states dictated who could own property based on a variety of discriminating factors, and Lincoln, prior to his death, intended to round blacks up and repatriate them back in Africa. States had a lot more power back then also. Immigration was mostly state driven. States had a lot more power to dictate who lived within their own boundaries. Lacking that power now, what is the recourse?
In the sense of classical liberalism, I agree with what you're saying, but we don't live in that country anymore. If you wanted to get back to that kind of a model, which frankly I'd be onboard with, you're gonna have to start by repealing the 16th amendment. You kind of have to pick one or the other. If you want open borders at the federal/national level, then states need their power back and they gotta have the right to control their borders as they see fit. Including control over property rights and voting rights. If you want an all-empowered centralized federal empire, then it has to be able to enforce the national border. You can't be having sanctuary cities and states and anchor baby door prizes for successful law breakers. The idea that 1868 thinking, fast forwarded to 2018, would have supported what's going on isn't a compelling argument.
Doctor Steuss wrote:by the way, I like your little monster figure, that's truly a nice touch :D
Thank you. The Rancor reminds me to take advantage of my midi-chlorians whilst questing for knowledge.
ROFL. I like you.
