Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

[_Kishkumen]

I will reiterate that my concern had nothing to do with the NDA or Reel’s recording of the DC. I agree that the DC is an exercise to pressure the person in question to fold and submit to Church authority. My point always was about the perception of recording and publishing it, and how that would impact his cause, and, moreover, what throwing caution to the wind might say about his motives in the first place.

If, as we seem to agree, the DC is a kind of authoritarian exercise to pressure Bill into submitting, then what is the purpose of showing up to record it? Especially when the Church does not require that you do so? You can always show your lack of submission by not going! That would seem to me to make the most sense if one has no intention of submitting. You go, you waste everyone’s time, you record your performance, publish it to the shame and embarrassment of all involved, including yourself, and . . . .

I don’t get it. If the situation were as things used to be, when we thought this was a court, we thought we had to go, we had no idea we could just resign easily and in peace (in fact we couldn’t), then this recording idea made some sense. Now it is pointless or even self-indulgent. One gets to play Galileo or Luther without nearly the consequences.

[_Jersey Girl]

I will reiterate that my concern had nothing to do with the NDA or Reel’s recording of the DC. I agree that the DC is an exercise to pressure the person in question to fold and submit to Church authority. My point always was about the perception of recording and publishing it, and how that would impact his cause, and, moreover, what throwing caution to the wind might say about his motives in the first place.

If, as we seem to agree, the DC is a kind of authoritarian exercise to pressure Bill into submitting, then what is the purpose of showing up to record it? Especially when the Church does not require that you do so? You can always show your lack of submission by not going! That would seem to me to make the most sense if one has no intention of submitting. You go, you waste everyone’s time, you record your performance, publish it to the shame and embarrassment of all involved, including yourself, and . . . .

I don’t get it. If the situation were as things used to be, when we thought this was a court, we thought we had to go, we had no idea we could just resign easily and in peace (in fact we couldn’t), then this recording idea made some sense. Now it is pointless or even self-indulgent. One gets to play Galileo or Luther without nearly the consequences.

I don't know why you don't get it.

You could just resign.
You could forgo the process entirely.
You could attend the DC without recording.

Or you could attend the DC and record it or have someone else record it, and walk out with evidence of how the true church functions in terms of truth telling that is inconvenient or not useful to it's intents and purposes.

Years ago, as I am sure you are aware, LDS were warned against reading "anti" material. I am more than certain that most or many obeyed. However, there are many who disobeyed, read the material or in the last 20ish years or so have accessed it online and they discovered what they believed to be cracks in the armor of truth regarding the church.

I think that the evidence of what takes place in a DC is but one more piece of evidence.

My impression is that you are all saying that Mr. Reel never seemed to want to destroy the church. I believe you. What I think you are saying is that in the final push, he acted out of character to who you believed him to be.

What I think I see in the scenario is a man who had (has) a heart for the church, told the truth about whatever issues he addressed, and when it came down to the point of a DC, he decided that when the rubber was about to meet the road and it was literal "no crap" time, he decided to document the truth once more.

I know I am an outside observer. I know that you and others have experience and knowledge here that I cannot match. I do think that a view from the outside, rather than from the inside, does have value.

I am not trying to wrestle you to the ground on this. I am trying to get you to see this through my eyes and consider an alternative perspective and explanation.

[_lostindc]

With all due respect Brother lost, unless you have a communications pipeline to every exiting LDS, including those that simply voted with their feet or turned in actual resignation letters, and manage to get a direct answer out of everyone of them, you have no better evidence for the potential connections that you are making via your observations and assumptions than I do.

That recording of the DC constitutes and provides access to information as well.

Fair points. I really have no connection in this department to spew what I stated besides the already voiced complaint from members and the church found on various sites (I can’t link from my phone right now).

I agree that the recording is access to information. Bill likely knows that the DC was going to be recorded. He hurt his integrity and acceptance of his message, but he’s not a major figure, rather a quick news story and onto the next excommunication. It’s kind of strange how the church is operating.

Anyways, I think it’s the access to historical information that is the greatest reason for members leaving the Church. Members can easily overlook some leaders messing up excommunications or an outlier of leaders doing horrible things, but they can’t overlook the strange history and the lack of evidence to support the claims of the church. That’s what is causing most to leave.

by the way, I love “Brother Lost” and one day I may change my username to that, haha.

[_Jersey Girl]

lost I just wrote you the best reply ever and promptly lost it, lost. I don't have time just now to rewrite it and then there's the added time I have to invest removing swear words and caps yelling before I post it.

Look for a reply from me later if you are interested.

[_lostindc]

lost I just wrote you the best reply ever and promptly lost it, lost. I don't have time just now to rewrite it and then there's the added time I have to invest removing swear words and caps yelling before I post it.

Look for a reply from me later if you are interested.

I hate when that happens, just know that your posts aren't LOST on me. I do get that I am a whiner right now. My expectations are probably pretty out of wack. I guess, for me, I know that for many TBMs, it's going to take a kinder, gentler approach, with transparency to get these TBMs to listen. Fortunately, things such as the CES letter and Mormon Think allow a member to read and fact check without the outrageous commentary found with many of these personalities like Bill, Mike, etc.

P.S. you do have a point that allowing Mike Norton to be Mike Norton helps display the impacts of the Church on a person, specifically abuse. This does have a place at the table, I just hate to see the guy continue to crush his name and maybe even his future opportunities. He needs help.

[Guest]

Regarding lost posts.

If you are losing a post that disappears after hitting the submit button, I have found that by hitting the back button on your screen (top left corner for me) that it will take you back to the post. You can then highlight all of it and copy it to clipboard and when the forum comes back up for you, you can then paste the work you had done right back into a "reply" screen.

[_Shulem]

Regarding lost posts.

If you are loosing a post that disappears after hitting the submit button, I have found that by hitting the back button on your screen (top left corner for me) that it will take you back to the post. You can then highlight all of it and copy it to clipboard and when the forum comes back up for you, you can then paste the work you had done right back into a "reply" screen.

I figured that out a long time ago, too. The good ole back button takes you right back to your lost post that didn't get posted. Poor Jersey Girl. She's lost a lot of posts over the years.

[_Kishkumen]

I don't know why you don't get it.

You could just resign.
You could forgo the process entirely.
You could attend the DC without recording.

Or you could attend the DC and record it or have someone else record it, and walk out with evidence of how the true church functions in terms of truth telling that is inconvenient or not useful to it's intents and purposes.

Years ago, as I am sure you are aware, LDS were warned against reading "anti" material. I am more than certain that most or many obeyed. However, there are many who disobeyed, read the material or in the last 20ish years or so have accessed it online and they discovered what they believed to be cracks in the armor of truth regarding the church.

I think that the evidence of what takes place in a DC is but one more piece of evidence.

My impression is that you are all saying that Mr. Reel never seemed to want to destroy the church. I believe you. What I think you are saying is that in the final push, he acted out of character to who you believed him to be.

What I think I see in the scenario is a man who had (has) a heart for the church, told the truth about whatever issues he addressed, and when it came down to the point of a DC, he decided that when the rubber was about to meet the road and it was literal "no crap" time, he decided to document the truth once more.

I know I am an outside observer. I know that you and others have experience and knowledge here that I cannot match. I do think that a view from the outside, rather than from the inside, does have value.

I am not trying to wrestle you to the ground on this. I am trying to get you to see this through my eyes and consider an alternative perspective and explanation.

Yeah, I don’t get it. Sorry. In the end I see a guy who converted away from Mormonism but did not know that is what he had done. I have sympathy for that. I do.

The podcast? Cool. The decision not to reconcile with the Church? Check. Sounds great.

The decision to go voluntarily to a Church court with a predetermined conclusion so you can add yet one more recording of interactions with outclassed volunteer clergy?

Nope. Not so much. Evidence of what? Things we know already?

“Good to see that the DC is as pointless as it has always been. These guys can’t answer his questions any better than the apostles could answer Steve Benson’s questions. Same with the Swedish Rescue. Remember the book of answers the apostle said he had that he would not show the Swedes? No book, it seems. No answers. Once again we see they really have no answers.”

There you have it, evidence that some guy’s volunteer stake president could not answer the questions half a dozen apostles could not answer. No surprises there.

If I want reasons to leave the LDS Church, there are plenty of things out there to urge me in that direction. A number of them can be found on Bill’s podcast. Listening to his DC is superfluous.

[_Jersey Girl]

Regarding lost posts.

If you are loosing a post that disappears after hitting the submit button, I have found that by hitting the back button on your screen (top left corner for me) that it will take you back to the post. You can then highlight all of it and copy it to clipboard and when the forum comes back up for you, you can then paste the work you had done right back into a "reply" screen.

I figured that out a long time ago, too. The good ole back button takes you right back to your lost post that didn't get posted. Poor Jersey Girl. She's lost a lot of posts over the years.

That's exactly what I did you giant crap.



It was still gone. Done. Boom. Disappeared.

You giant crap.

[_Shulem]

That's exactly what I did you giant crap.



It was still gone. Done. Boom. Disappeared.

You giant crap.

Huh. Well. I guess you're crap out of luck.