Apologetic Chestnuts

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_Kishkumen
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Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Kishkumen »

Certain LDS apologists love to bandy about little anecdotes that seem to lend credence to LDS beliefs. I call these things “apologetic chestnuts.”

Here is a characteristic example:

Years ago, my friend Louis Midgley alerted me to an anecdote that the eminent Protestant church historian Martin Marty once used to make a point about Mormonism: The famous 18th-century French hostess Marie de Vichy-Chamrond, the Marquise du Deffand, friend of Voltaire and other leading intellectuals of her day, was conversing with Cardinal de Polignac. He told her that the martyr St. Denis, first Christian bishop of Paris, had taken up his head and walked a hundred miles after his execution. Madame du Deffand replied, “In such a promenade, it is the first step that is difficult.” She meant, of course, that it’s not the claim that St. Denis walked a hundred miles that poses a difficulty. Maybe he really walked only 99 miles. Or perhaps he walked a hundred and two. Such differences mean little. The fundamental question is whether, after his beheading, he walked at all. If that essential point has been granted, the rest is merely a footnote.


This prompts me to ask, “What was Mormonism’s first step?”

Martin Marty did not know. All he might have been saying was that of all the marvelous claims Smith made, one valid one would be amazing enough. Perhaps there would be reason to believe after all.

The problem is that there needs to be a valid claim—an indisputable bullseye—for there to be a first step. The apologists thought they had that with NHM. It turned out that they were nowhere in the ballpark.

All I see is a bunch of guys standing over St. Denis’ corpse, turning to each other, and saying, “I think I saw him twitch; did you see that too?”
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_I have a question
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _I have a question »

That anecdote sounds a lot like Shiz...which tale of post-decapitation activity predates the other?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Kishkumen
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Kishkumen »

I have a question wrote:That anecdote sounds a lot like Shiz...which tale of post-decapitation activity predates the other?


LOL! Yeah, kinda like Shiz. Shiz was just as unbelievable as St. Denis. That first unbelievable step.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Organized religions are full of such headless journeys.


"If Engrams actually exist then Scientology is proven true."
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Lemmie
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Lemmie »

All I see is a bunch of guys standing over St. Denis’ corpse, turning to each other, and saying, “I think I saw him twitch; did you see that too?”

:lol: :lol: Nice, kish.

And the same bunch of guys are still there as it decomposes, saying, "Just wait...wait...I promise you a twitch is coming soon....science works that way, you know."
_Stem
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Stem »

I don't know why but my mind went to the old and over used quote by Mosser and Owen wherein they indicated the evangelicals are losing some battle with Mormons and not knowing it. What a parade that quote gave us Mormons. "we're beating these folks who keep telling us we're a cult. And they are big and huge and we're tiny and cute."

Was there a step made in the mainstream world of Christian apologetics or were MOsser and Owen just trying to liven up their crowd? Well if there was a step was it a step towards nowhere at all? I mean whats to gain by beating out anti-cult rhetoric?
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Great thread!

Dr. Shades, would you be so kind as to consider pinning this thread for a few weeks at least?

There are so many classic Apologetic Chestnuts we could post on this thread.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Gadianton
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Gadianton »

"If Engrams actually exist then Scientology is proven true."


An important point. I have a feeling the mi_G and company aren't being entirely fair with Marty, and I'd like a CFR before accepting the story by the man whose buddy got Reagan elected. Certainly, the conversion tactic is to get the smallest particle of supernatural agreed upon and then everything else is for free. I kind of doubt Marty meant to bolster the Mormon conversion tactic, but who knows?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Symmachus
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Symmachus »

Hugo Nibleyensis wrote: This is the Enoch text from the fourth cave, and this is the Enoch astronomical text from the fourth cave. They were all handed over to Father J. T. Milik (who lives in Jerusalem) by the Rockefeller Foundation. When these were found, they were to be studied. They were divided up among various schools and committees, etc. He got the Enoch book. He kept it for 27 years without letting anyone look at it. It finally came out in 1976. For example, when I was writing this series, it was absolutely unavailable.

In 1976 Father Joseph Fitzmyer was here and gave a course during the summer school in Aramaic. This writing is in Aramaic, and of course, his fellow Jesuit, Father Milik, would gladly let him see it. "Oh no," he said. Anytime he asked for it, he would hide it under his coat. He wouldn't let anybody see it. For 27 years it was kept out of circulation. Then after I had finished this series, the last day they finally published it. In 1977 it was published by Oxford, and the English was done by Matthew Black. Father Milik and Matthew Black worked together on it. Matthew Black came here the week it came out. He sent me a letter before he came and said, "Is there anything you would like me to discuss about Enoch when I get there." I said, "Yes, the story of Mahujah and Mahijah."

....Here is the story. What has always impressed me as the oddest detail of the Joseph Smith account of Enoch was the appearance out of the blue of the name of the only non-biblical individual named in the whole book, and that's Mahijah (Moses 6:40Moses 6:40 ). Mahijah was the one who asked Enoch the searching questions. Well, this is what happens. (We are near to it anyway. It's just an example.) There came a man to him whose name; see, everybody is scared to death. Let's go before it, Moses 6:36Moses 6:36 . This is a marvelous picture we get of Enoch. He's a mysterious character, and in all the Enoch literature this is the way he comes across. "…from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people. And it came to pass that Enoch went forth…standing upon the hills and the high places [remember the righteous are always associated with the high places; they have to come up to see him, and they do] and cried with a loud voice, testifying against their works; and all men were offended because of him. And they came forth to hear him upon the high places, saying unto the tent-keepers: [you stay down here, and we will go up and listen to him] Tarry ye here and keep the tents, while we go yonder to behold the seer, for he prophesieth, and there is a strange thing in the land; a wild man hath come among us." Now here's the story we get from here, and it is never mentioned in any of these. "…for fear came upon all them that heard him; for he walked with God. And there came a man unto him whose name was Mahijah, and he said unto him: Tell us plainly who thou art and from whence thou comest. And he said unto them: I came from the land of Cainan, the land of my fathers, a land of righteousness unto this day [they had retained their righteous condition unto this day]. And my father taught me in all the ways of God. And it came to pass as I journeyed from the land of Cainan by the sea east, I beheld a vision;…" He goes on, and then he talks about the book and says "why counsel ye yourselves and deny the God of heaven?…And death hath come upon our fathers; nevertheless, we know them and cannot deny, and even the first of all we know [because of this book], even Adam. For a book of remembrance we have written among us, according to the pattern given by the finger of God;…" Then he read to them from the book and they were ashamed. They couldn't face him when he read to them from the book and couldn't stand in his presence.

Well, I just had time for this concluding article, which they would allow only two pages for, to match these up. From Moses 6:39: "And it came to pass when they heard him, no man laid hands on him; for fear came on all them that heard him; for he walked with God." From 4QEnoch: "Thereupon all the giants and the nephilim took fright [when they heard about Enoch]." Joseph Smith: "And there came a man unto him whose name was Mahijah, and said unto him: Tell us plainly who thou art and from whence thou comest?" 4QEnoch: "And they summoned Mahujah [Mahijah; it's written both ways] and he came to them. And the giants asked him and sent him to Enoch, saying to him: Go then and under pain of death you must listen to his voice; and tell him that he is to explain to you and to interpret the dreams. [Tell them exactly who you are. He comes to them, and he said unto them, Tell us plainly who comest.]." They are scared; they don't know who Enoch is, so they force Mahijah to go and ask who they really are. He's scared and he doesn't want to do that. The principal giant is Ohyah; he's the head of them. Ohyah said to Mahijah: "And I do not tremble. Who showed you all these things? Why do you tell us this?" And Mahijah said, "Baraq'el, my father, was with me." That Baraq'el is interesting too because Baraq'el is supposed to have been the father of Enoch. That's the name Enoch goes by in the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith is called Enoch or Baraq'el. A professor in Hebrew at the University of Utah said, "Well, Joseph Smith didn't understand the word barak meaning 'to bless.'" But Baraq'el means the "lightning of God." That was one of the names that Enoch bore. The Doctrine and Covenants is right on target in that, and this confirms it, that he is called Baraq'el here.

Anyway, he said to them (Moses 6:41Moses 6:41), "I came out of the land Cainan, the land of my fathers, a land of righteousness unto this day." In 4QEnoch here Ohyah comes and following him Mahujah comes and reports to the people that sent him and says, "My accusers, they dwell in the heavens; they live in holy places, and they are more powerful than we." So again Enoch says, I come from a land of righteousness to this day. And his answer is, They dwell in holy places, and there is nothing much we can do about them. And then Enoch tells the story: And as I journeyed by the sea east, I beheld a vision: and lo, the heavens I saw. As I was journeying, I went up on the mount and beheld the heavens open. 4QEnoch: "Mahujah rose up in the air like a whirlwind, and he flew and crossed Solitude, the great desert. And he caught sight of Enoch, and he called to him and said to him: An oracle * * * [it breaks off]." And Enoch said, "We cannot deny…for a book of remembrance we have written among us, according to the pattern given by the finger of God and it is given in our own language."

4QEnoch: "Unto you, Mahijah the two tablets * * * and the second has never been read up until now. It is the sacred book of * * *. The copy of the second tablet of the Epistle written by Enoch, the distinguished scribe, with his own hands." Remember, written by the finger of God. It says according to the pattern given by the finger of God. The finger of God didn't write it. Enoch said he wrote it according to the pattern given by the finger of God in our own language . And here it says, "Written by Enoch, the distinguished scribe, in his own hand, and the Holy One, to Shemihazah and all his companions." The record is sent from the Holy One (that's from God) to Shemihazah. Then it goes on, "And as Enoch spake forth the words of God, the people trembled, and could not stand in his presence." This one says: "Ohyah said to Hahyah, his brother * * * [the two leading giants] they were struck with fear and prostrated themselves and began to weep before Enoch." Here Enoch says, "Loosen yourselves from your bonds of sin. Repent from the sin that ties you up and begin to pray." Then the giants come to battle against Enoch.

The Joseph Smith version says, "Enoch led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled,…" And this one says, "(Ohyah the enemy of Enoch): '…by the strength of my power, I had attacked all flesh and I have made war with them…" This is the leader of the hosts saying, "They live in holy abodes, and they are more powerful than I." Then the next verse is interesting: "…and the roar of lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly,…" 4QEnoch says, "And the roaring of wild beasts came, and the multitude of wild animals began to cry out. And Ohyah spoke…' My dream has overwhelmed me and sleep has left my eyes.'" They even have the animals howling out of the wilderness here. "The roar of lions was heard out of the wilderness." It sounds so incongruous, so odd, there. Incidentally, this isn't my translation I've been following. I have been using Milik's translation.

As I said, Matthew Black was coming. He had just got this work out. I said, "How about this? Joseph Smith has this story, and nobody else has it. Where did he get it from?" He wouldn't talk about it (absolutely nothing). When he came from the airport, he had it in his pocket. He said, "Here's your letter here."

I said, "All right, how about Mahijah and Mahujah?" Nothing. I had one four-hour conversation with him, and he never let out a peep about it. That's when we went to a concert together. But he did let this out. Walking along, he said, "Well, someday we will find out the source that Joseph Smith used. Someday we'll find it; we'll find it, don't worry."


Well, just what are the chances of Joseph Smith (living in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1830) getting hold of any of these sources or anything else? Of course, none of this was there. But when you get things like this, they are awfully hard to explain. It is really quite remarkable."
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Kishkumen
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Re: Apologetic Chestnuts

Post by _Kishkumen »

Genesis 4:18
To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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