Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
MissTish wrote:Do you think that CC was referring only to Muslim's religious customs?

No, I said, "I suspect law-makers in CA think the same thing. If not, then why isn't California stopping child marriage?"

Why don’t you get off your ass and educate yourself? You are the one who blamed Muslims for California’s marriage law based on zero evidence. MishTish has no obligation to spoon feed you.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

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MissTish wrote:Why did you skip over all the other states listed, including West Virginia and Texas, who have the highest rates, and focus on CA and Muslim asses? Nothing to say about Nevada? Oklahoma? Seven other states are mentioned besides CA.

Because subgenius and canpakes were talking about Georgia and California. I do not deny it is a bigger problem in WV and Texas, and I blame the conservative Christians.

canpakes wrote:Why are you so fixated on California, with the same problem happening more often in your backyard? ; )

It is a bigger problem in California.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -by-state/

I think it is because California likes to kiss a lot of Muslim ass.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 2#p1189442
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:Why don’t you get off your ass and educate yourself? You are the one who blamed Muslims for California’s marriage law based on zero evidence. MishTish has no obligation to spoon feed you.


Well, it is true that California has a large Muslim population. It is also true California has a child marriage problem. It is also true that "Rates of underage marriage are high in southern, rural states with a high prevalence of poverty and religious conservatism, as well as among Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs and Hmongs".

The gov of New Jersey said in 2017, “I agree that protecting the well-being, dignity, and freedom of minors is vital, but the severe bar this bill creates is not necessary to address the concerns voiced by the bill’s proponents and does not comport with the sensibilities and, in some cases, the religious customs, of the people of this State,” Christie said in his veto message. So I suspect the politicians in California have a similar mentality, but I admit I don't have enough data yet.

Help me if I am wrong. Do you have any references?
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Why don’t you get off your ass and educate yourself? You are the one who blamed Muslims for California’s marriage law based on zero evidence. MishTish has no obligation to spoon feed you.

Well, it is true that California has a large Muslim population. It is also true California has a child marriage problem. It is also true that "Rates of underage marriage are high in southern, rural states with a high prevalence of poverty and religious conservatism, as well as among Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Sikhs and Hmongs".

The gov of New Jersey said in 2017, “I agree that protecting the well-being, dignity, and freedom of minors is vital, but the severe bar this bill creates is not necessary to address the concerns voiced by the bill’s proponents and does not comport with the sensibilities and, in some cases, the religious customs, of the people of this State,” Christie said in his veto message. So I suspect the politicians in California have a similar mentality, but I admit I don't have enough data yet.

Help me if I am wrong. Do you have any references?

What? Provide you for references that say "Popularity of Kissing Muslim Asses Has Nothing To Do With California Marriage Law?" Why should I when you've not shown a shred of evidence that Muslims are responsible for anything having to do with California marriage laws? Let's just review your "evidence."

1. California has a "large" Muslim population.

Muslims make up 1% of California's population. Absent some actual evidence, there is no reason to believe that such a tiny religions minority has any influence on California marriage law. Muslims make up 3% of New Jersey's population, and yet New Jersey just adopted an absolute age requirement of 18.

2. California has a child marriage "problem."

California, like every other state in the union until the last few years, allowed child marriage (one partner under 18 years of age) under specified circumstances. In the case of California, those circumstances were parental approval and a court order. Let's say we have two emancipated minors who want to marry. Is this a "problem?" Let's say we have a pregnant 17 year old who wants to keep and raise her baby. Both she and the 17 year-old father want to get married and there is no coercion by anyone involved. The parents approve and a judge finds it is in the best interest of all three to grant the parents permission to marry. Is this a problem?

If neither of those two examples of child marriage is a problem, then just what is the "problem" and what is the magnitude of the problem?

3. A quote from Reuters.

What is the source of the Reuters quote? Does the source provide any numbers? Specifically, what is the rate of child marriages among American Muslims in California in contrast to the rate of child marriages in California as a whole. Is the rate for Muslims higher in California than the rate of the other groups identified in the quote?

4. One sentence from Chris Christie's veto message.

As you explained, your logic was something like: liberals like kissing muslim ass, California is liberal, Californians like kissing liberal ass.

Chris Christie is not liberal. Was this his entire veto message? Would you care to post the whole thing?

I don't need to show you any references when you've shown exactly zero evidence that the desire to kiss muslim ass has anything to do with the state of California marriage law.

If you want to educate yourself, start by asking yourself this question: If child marriage has historically been legal in all 50 states under certain circumstances, why are states all of a sudden considering laws to set a no-exceptions age limit at 18? Who is advocating for these laws and why? Who is opposed to these laws and why? Don't latch on to your biases and a couple of factoids and quotes. Be curious. Figure it out. Learn to fish.
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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:1. California has a "large" Muslim population.

Muslims make up 1% of California's population. Absent some actual evidence, there is no reason to believe that such a tiny religions minority has any influence on California marriage law. Muslims make up 3% of New Jersey's population, and yet New Jersey just adopted an absolute age requirement of 18.

But that was the case before 2018. According to the governor, "in some cases, the religious customs, of the people of this State,” Christie said in his veto message. So thank goodness New Jersey stopped kissing religions ass.

Res Ipsa wrote:2. California has a child marriage "problem."

California, like every other state in the union until the last few years, allowed child marriage (one partner under 18 years of age) under specified circumstances. In the case of California, those circumstances were parental approval and a court order. Let's say we have two emancipated minors who want to marry. Is this a "problem?" Let's say we have a pregnant 17 year old who wants to keep and raise her baby. Both she and the 17 year-old father want to get married and there is no coercion by anyone involved. The parents approve and a judge finds it is in the best interest of all three to grant the parents permission to marry. Is this a problem?

So why is the age of consent in California strictly 18 with no close in age exception? In California a 17 year old cannot consent to sex, but is allowed to get married. The logic does make sense in a religious context.

There isn't much data for the state of California, but you can find stories. For example, according to the Orange County article, "Sara Tasneem was forced into a religious marriage at age 15 in Los Angeles...Unchained At Last, a nonprofit dedicated to banning child marriages, reports that between 2000 and 2010, some 167,000 minors were married in 38 states. That figure doesn’t include California — because, well, the state doesn’t keep such records"

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/15/c ... in-danger/

According to the Wikipedia, "UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates – Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) – are Islamic majority countries."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage
https://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC ... e-Mali.pdf

Now without enough data I cannot confirm my suspicions and I could be wrong, but with the available information does suggest that Muslims have a child marriage problem.
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

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The age of consent for sex has nothing to do with your contention that California laws have anything to do with kissing Muslim ass. It's a red herring. Does it make sense? I don't think so. But I would suggest that the main problem is the idiocy of criminalizing sex between 17 year olds. But the inconsistency has absolutely nothing to do with your claim. Most states have to reconcile all kinds of things that involve consent for younger folks. You have marriage, sex, and abortion, just to name three. Should all three have the same age? Should the rules be absolute or should there be exceptions? I don't know. Neither do politicians.

At least you discovered Unchained at Last. Unchained at Last is an advocacy group created by Fraidy Reiss, an orthodox jew who was forced at age 19 into a marriage that was abusive and violent. She is the motivating force behind the movement to restrict marriage to adults. She presents statistics, which she says she obtained by studying marriage licenses in states where they were available, but I've never seen any data or other information that would allow one to verify her conclusions.

Even so, according to her own data, the total number of children married in the U.S. fell by 50% between 2000 and 2010 -- all on its own. Unchained was founded in 2011, and no state enacted an adult only, no exception law during that period. So, to the extent child marriage is a problem, the problem has been going away all by itself.

by the way, her data also shows that New Jersey, the state with the highest percentage of Muslims, had only the 36th highest rate of child marriage between 2000 and 2010.

As you found the article in the OC register, you know that California has, indeed, changed its marriage laws in response to Unchained's lobbying. And if you read Chris Cristie's veto message, you know that he proposed changes to New Jersey's marriage law to address the concerns raised by Unchained.

Where you stopped being curious was in believing that child marriage data isn't available in California. Of course it is. You have to have a court order to get one. All you needed to do was keep reading the newspapers at the time instead of stopping at one that said something you liked. If you'd kept reading, you'd have found out more data.

LA county as a population of about 10 million. California is about 40 million. In the five-year period before California was considering the changes to its marriage law, a total of 44 petitions were filed for child marriages. That's less than 10 per year, or less than 40 per year in the entire state. Yet, Unchained estimated 3000 per year. And what percentage of the child marriages that actually occurred were actually forced as opposed to voluntary?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/art ... 268497.php

I applaud the efforts of Ms. Reiss to fight forced marriages and to help rescue women who are trapped in those marriages. But here's the question: given the actual size of the problem, will her demand of an absolute age limit on the right to marry actually solve the problem? And what are the tradeoffs? You can figure that out by reading about who opposed the absolute limit in California and why.

Who opposed the bill? Not organizations of Muslims, Orthodox Jews, or Hmong. It was the ACLU and the National Center for Youth law. Marriage is a fundamental right, remember? And folks under 18 have constitutional rights.

The focus of efforts should be on abusive and coerced relationships, regardless of marital status, said Phyllida Burlingame of the ACLU’s Northern California chapter.

Referring to current regulations, including the requirement of a court order allowing a juvenile to marry, she said California had “a strong package of both programs and laws that prevent coerced marriage among youth, and a lack of data showing this is a widespread problem.” Hill’s original proposal, she said, “was a solution that wasn’t necessarily going to have the impact on improving young people's health and relationships that we want.”

Other opponents said marriage is a fundamental right, and that some juveniles not only marry willingly but benefit from the choice.

“Any legislation to eliminate this core right,” said the National Center for Youth Law in a statement opposing Hill’s initial legislation, “must be based on concrete data and information that demonstrates this drastic step is the most effective and appropriate strategy to address the harms being alleged, and that there are not other less extreme options available.”


There is also a genuine concern that the relatively small number of marriages forced on children will simply be driven underground if there is an absolute age limit without exception. In other words, it is questionable whether simply making marriage to a person under 18 illegal will significantly reduce the actual problem: young people being forced into a sexual relationship against their will.

by the way, marriage statistics for other countries don't apply to American Muslims. Stop trying to confirm your suspicions and focus on learning.
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _subgenius »

Res Ipsa wrote:The age of consent for sex has nothing to do with your contention that California laws have anything to do with kissing Muslim ass. ...

agreed. It has more to do with the long held California tradition of statutory rape, casting couches, and sexual exploitation of women.
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:by the way, her data also shows that New Jersey, the state with the highest percentage of Muslims, had only the 36th highest rate of child marriage between 2000 and 2010.

You make a good point. In the US most child marriages probably involve 16 and 17 year olds. However, I suspect most marriages that involve a child under 16 are a Muslim, Orthodox Jew, or Hmong marriage. Why on earth would courts allow some children under 16 to marry an adult? Is it because of religious freedom? According to the NYT, "Between 2000 and 2010, an estimated 248,000 children were married, most of whom were girls, some as young as 12, wedding men." According to Frontline 985 children (age 14) in 33 states were married between 2000 to 2010, "We did not receive data from California, Georgia, Maine, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania or the District of Columbia. States made different years’ worth of data available. While most provided records for 2000 through 2010, some were able to give us more recent numbers. It is impossible to know exactly who got married or why, as public records only show the age and gender of each person." http://apps.frontline.org/child-marriag ... e-numbers/

Why doesn't California have a minimum age for marriage yet? What are the benefits for some children under 16 to get married?

Res Ipsa wrote:The age of consent for sex has nothing to do with your contention that California laws have anything to do with kissing Muslim ass. It's a red herring. Does it make sense? I don't think so.

It probably does have to do with Christianity. In Christianity sex before marriage is bad, but sex after marriage is good. Many Christians are okay with allowing a pregnant 16 year old to get married.

Res Ipsa wrote: But I would suggest that the main problem is the idiocy of criminalizing sex between 17 year olds.

Or sending 20 year old man to prison for having sex with a 17 year old, unless he marries her.
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

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DT, you’ve provided zero evidence that liking to kiss Muslim ass has anything to do with California’s marriage laws. You’ve ignored evidence that shows that California has recently changed its marriage consent laws to address the problems of coerced or forced marriages. You’ve ignored the evidence that shows who opposed an absolute age of 18 requirement in California and why they opposed it. Now you’re shifting goalposts like crazy.

My point was that your kissing Muslim ass statement was based on nothing more than personal bigotry. I think I’ve shown that. Absent actual evidence — as opposed to suspicion based on bigotry — that the Marriage laws in California are the product of kissing Muslim ass, I see no need to respond.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: Tidal wave of sexual assault-misconduct allegations list

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:DT, you’ve provided zero evidence that liking to kiss Muslim ass has anything to do with California’s marriage laws. You’ve ignored evidence that shows that California has recently changed its marriage consent laws to address the problems of coerced or forced marriages..


Okay fair enough, but California still needs a minimum age for marriage. It is not enough to just stop coerce or forced marriages.

Res Ipsa wrote:Who opposed the bill? Not organizations of Muslims, Orthodox Jews, or Hmong. It was the ACLU and the National Center for Youth law. Marriage is a fundamental right, remember? And folks under 18 have constitutional rights.


So is the right to vote. I don't understand why California doesn't have a minimum age for marriage. Why can't it be 16 or 17 years? What is the explanation?

Many states allow child marriage to prevent abortions, but that doesn't apply to California.

Researcher Mellissa Withers wrote, "Religious tradition remains a contributing factor to child marriage rates, yet other, often darker, reasons fuel them. Child marriage is often used to prevent young, pregnant girls from having children outside of wedlock, which, along with abortion, are socially unacceptable in certain communities"
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -in-the-us
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