MDB Bible Study

[_huckelberry]

So the Garden of Eden story explains "why humans [are] inclined to be awful to each other?" I think we are in similar places re making guesses what the other is thinking, because I don't get that either, nor does it correspond to any LDS teaching I can recall from my past.

Lemmie , just a bit of clarification, I left the LDS faith fifty years ago so am not attempting to relate to LDS beliefs. I am intentionally contradicting the LDS system of prophetic history.

[_Gunnar]

Schmo, I think most Judeo-Christian religions believe Adam and Eve could have multiplied and built up the garden. God gave them the opportunity to build a paradise and instead they supposedly messed it up starting with Eve. The LDS view is much more charitable to Eve in her being the one to recognize a need to take the fruit in order to multiply and progress, but it's not the general understanding outside Mormonism.

Honorentheos, I think that Schmo realizes, as I do, that the idea that most Judeo-Christian religions believe in, that Adam and Eve and their descendants could have multiplied and built up the garden indefinitely, had they not partaken of the forbidden fruit, makes even less sense than the Mormon view that they could not have begun to have children and multiply until they became mortal. Most Judeo-Christian religions (including Mormons) believe that Adam and Eve would have remained immortal had they not partaken of the fruit, and so would their progeny, if they had any. If no one died, and in each new generation (30 years, let's say), each living couple had 2 children, the total population would double every 30 years, meaning that the annual growth rate in population would be about 2.33% per year. At that rate of growth, assuming no one ever died or practiced contraception, and the average mass per human being was about 50 kg, the total mass of humanity would exceed the entire estimated mass of the observable universe (1.5 x 10^53 kg) in less than 5,200 years!

Obviously the population could have initially grown much, much faster than that if no one ever died and no one practiced contraception. Unless further procreation were absolutely banned from or near the beginning, or as soon as the population reached the maximum that the earth could sustain, people would have had to start dying of starvation or war due to having to fight each other over limited resources shortly after the immortal Adam and Eve started having children.

[_Chap]

I'm glad to see others responding for me.

Yup, the Garden business makes little sense once you look at it coldly as an old story rather than treating it as sacred scripture.

But there is one thing it does make completely clear: one step out of line with this guy Yahweh and he will be down on you like a ton of bricks. Don't expect any second chances. He's a real ... well, we can choose the words that suit us best. 'Ancient Hebrew War-god promoted way above his paygrade' captures the essentials, I think.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Chap

I'm glad to see others responding for me.

Yup, the Garden business makes little sense once you look at it coldly as an old story rather than treating it as sacred scripture.

Yes, if you "look at it coldly" then you forced to deliver a view like the one you have delivered. But, if you were to read it and allow the possibly to exist that there might be a deeper understanding in the story, you might find that there is an alternate concerning the one you have come up with.

As a believer, when I read it, I clearly understand that this isn't about eating a piece of fruit (To have such a shallow understanding illustrates the many shortcomings we humans have in and about a number of topics/issues) The story is cemented in a rejection of God's supreme authority. Just as Adam and Eve rejected God's supreme authority, human beings since then (as well as human beings today) continue to reject this authority. Additional reading of the text also shows us what happened after they rejected God - They used fig leafs to cover themselves (guilt and shame - the same guilt and shame that each and every one of us humans experience today). When Gd called out to them, they "hid" from God - We still do that today. Fortunately, God continues to seek us.

But there is one thing it does make completely clear: one step out of line with this guy Yahweh and he will be down on you like a ton of bricks. Don't expect any second chances.

This could be the oddest thing I have ever read about God. Not only is it made abundantly clear that we humans get a "second chance" , By the love, grace and patience of God, each of us get thousands and thousands of chances. You are familiar with the crucifixion of Jesus and what that means, yes?

He's a real ... well, we can choose the words that suit us best. 'Ancient Hebrew War-god promoted way above his paygrade' captures the essentials, I think.

I think what captures this best is the Book of Romans Chapter 1:21-32
Please understand that I am not focusing on you, alone, by this part of scripture - Rather, I am indeed including you, and me, and all human beings

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Chap

I'm glad to see others responding for me.

Yup, the Garden business makes little sense once you look at it coldly as an old story rather than treating it as sacred scripture.

Yes, if you "look at it coldly" then you forced to deliver a view like the one you have delivered. But, if you were to read it and allow the possibly to exist that there might be a deeper understanding in the story, you might find that there is an alternate understanding concerning the one you have come up with.

As a believer, when I read it, I clearly understand that this isn't about eating a piece of fruit (To have such a shallow understanding illustrates the many shortcomings we humans have in and about a number of topics/issues) The story is cemented in a rejection of God's supreme authority. Just as Adam and Eve rejected God's supreme authority, human beings since then (as well as human beings today) continue to reject this authority. Additional reading of the text also shows us what happened after they rejected God - They used fig leafs to cover themselves (guilt and shame - the same guilt and shame that each and every one of us humans experience today). When God called out to them, they "hid" from God - We still do that today. Fortunately, God continues to seek us.

But there is one thing it does make completely clear: one step out of line with this guy Yahweh and he will be down on you like a ton of bricks. Don't expect any second chances.

This could be the oddest thing I have ever read about God. Not only is it made abundantly clear that we humans get a "second chance" , By the love, grace and patience of God, each of us get thousands and thousands of chances. You are familiar with the crucifixion of Jesus and what that means, yes?

He's a real ... well, we can choose the words that suit us best. 'Ancient Hebrew War-god promoted way above his paygrade' captures the essentials, I think.

I think what captures this best is the Book of Romans Chapter 1:21

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[_Lemmie]

But, if you were to read it and allow the possibly to exist that there might be a deeper understanding in the story, you might find that there is an alternate concerning the one you have come up with.

Of course. every possible thing can mean something else if you decide beforehand that what something says is not what it really means. The key, then, is coming to the reading with your mind already made up that you WILL find meaning.

As a believer, when I read it, I clearly understand that this isn't about eating a piece of fruit (To have such a shallow understanding illustrates the many shortcomings we humans have...

So the options are an allegorical interpretation that attempts to understand the actual meaning as written, or an alternative allegorical interpretation that has to be assumed to exist before evaluating the writing and may not actually follow the story points, or may pick and choose what has meaning and what does not. Your word for the first is shallow, my word for the second is illogical, or maybe imaginary. Legions of imaginary, actually, because anyone can decide anything says anything, using your criteria.

Also, what are the “many shortcomings we humans have” that are illustrated in the study of a text? That seems like a sweeping overstatement about the process. Although “vain imaginations” fits, I suppose, if assumptions are made even before a study is undertaken that meaning must exist.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I think the Bible can be interesting if you look at the mythological characters as archetypes and the stories as allegories related through their cultural lens. The historical figures? They’re generally less interesting than most other figures in history who were notable for their conquests or philosophies. It’s also weird-interesting to see people profess unending fanboy-ness about the whole thing. Personally, I prefer the Star Trek universe over Christianity because it’s based far more in reality than the Bible.

- Doc

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Lemmie

Of course. every possible thing can mean something else if you decide beforehand that what something says is not what it really means. The key, then, is coming to the reading with your mind already made up that you WILL find meaning.

Of course, there is another possibility. That is - Coming to the reading with your mind already made up that you WILL NOT find meaning.

Also, what are the “many shortcomings we humans have” that are illustrated in the study of a text?

I believe that the Bible comes to us from God (A Spiritual being) - I believe that the Bible contains spiritual Truth (capital T) - I believe the power of the Holy Spirit provides wisdom, understanding and illumination.

[_Lemmie]

Hey Lemmie

Of course. every possible thing can mean something else if you decide beforehand that what something says is not what it really means. The key, then, is coming to the reading with your mind already made up that you WILL find meaning.

Of course, there is another possibility. That is - Coming to the reading with your mind already made up that you WILL NOT find meaning.

And both are not appropriate, right? So starting with pre-assumptions is not a good approach, and we are back to trying to understand what’s written.

Also, what are the “many shortcomings we humans have” that are illustrated in the study of a text?

I believe that the Bible comes to us from God (A Spiritual being) - I believe that the Bible contains spiritual Truth (capital T) - I believe the power of the Holy Spirit provides wisdom, understanding and illumination.

If this is a testimony thing, then Ok, I understand, but what I don’t understand is why this is coming after you quoted my question? If you are responding to my question, then are those pre-assumptions? I thought the agreement was that pre-assumptions negatively influence an attempt to understand? And the question is still there- what “many shortcomings” are evident in the study of a text?

[_Chap]

Hey again, Chap

I'm glad to see others responding for me.

Yup, the Garden business makes little sense once you look at it coldly as an old story rather than treating it as sacred scripture.

Yes, if you "look at it coldly" then you forced to deliver a view like the one you have delivered. But, if you were to read it and allow the possibly to exist that there might be a deeper understanding in the story, you might find that there is an alternate understanding concerning the one you have come up with.

Are you so inattentive that you think I have not been there, done that and got the T-shirt?

I suspect I have read the Genesis story considerably more often than you have, and have devoted more time to exploring the various diverse accounts of its significance delivered over the years. But OK, if people come to the conclusion that it is just a piece of ancient story-telling, one amongst many such by numerous ancient peoples (and by no means a consistent one either), it must be because they have not 'read it'. Oh sorry, 'read it'.

And your attempt to rescue the character of bloodthirsty and vengeful old Yahweh ('Kill them all except the virgin girls, whom you may ....') as he actually was when people took him seriously, by assimilating him to your version of a later religion - well, nice try, but no cigar.