Stem wrote:mentalgymnast wrote:
I'm glad we can agree on that. I should point out, however, that I'm doubtful that in any afterlife the cards fall where they may in any sense of randomness or chance. I think that in the final analysis, we will have direct control over the toss of dice. We'll know whether they're coming up sixes or not. Here on earth, with a veil of forgetfulness and lack of full understanding, we are not privy to why the cards are stacked one way or the other. We can only take advantage of the way the cards are dealt.
I don't think that's true. It seems to me we have very little say in how the cards are stacked, and in most cases that which was dealt is so impossible there is no option but to fold immediately. As it is, growing up Mormon, a very common theme was we were among the most valiant held in reserve for these latter days--as if we were all dealt 4 aces. I suppose it could have been a deceptive kind of comment wherein the speaker had no real belief we were among the most valiant and held in reserve for these latter days, but just wanted to blow air up our skirts. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a teaching. it surely was. Perhaps it was a bit of a layover of the blatant racism that the prophets used to teach (of course a "lesser race" was not valiant before the world was therefore they have a lesser chance here--the best chance for them is eternal servitude). Whatever the case, I don't think it's easy to deny that, even if any given Mormon can deny it is a true teaching or not.
What that little teaching suggests though, is people are given their station on this earth based on something done or not done before this world was. Whose to say you have the same chance at exaltation as a 2,000 BC person living in what is today China? You might say, "well he can be baptized for dead and given the other necessary ordinances" I suppose. But let's talk this out some...
If say, the big difference between your life and the life of someone who lives currently in Russia and has never heard of or become Mormon is you have gotten ordinances. Say this Russian dies tomorrow and in time is given all the ordinances you have. What does Mormonism teach:
And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, …..these are they who died without law;....Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it....These are they who are honorable men of the earth....These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
So again, I suppose you can disagree with what the Church teaches and say something like, "well everyone will be given a second chance" or "those who were not preached the gospel to in this life will be given the same chance as me". Most can't take advantage of the way the cards are dealt. They either aren't dealt cards or their cards are garbage only useful to fold as quickly as possible.
I'm saying the potential for the psychopath to be saved is the same as it is for you or for me, yes.
well everyone's saved in Mormonism. So it is, the psychopath and Hitler can sing hymns hand in hand in the telestial realm, but I do believe that's the best they can get. I suppose you can say "Well God might automatically exalt those who died before the age of accountability or those who mentally never really reached that age." But that is something else..something other than what is taught.
Go back and read your Doctrine and Covenants.
Sounds to me like
you should.
Sure. Not sure what you mean by "real live hell", but be that as it may...yes, I think that everyone will have the same shot at eternal bliss and happiness.
I will add it is perhaps the only sane way to be Mormon--disagree with the scriptures and stuff and say things like "everyone will have the same shot at eternal bliss". So I'll give you that. But we aren't talking about your personal unsupported views here. We're talking about Mormonism itself. The religion teaches that no, not everyone will have the same shot. As it is, only those who actually hear and accept the "testimony of Jesus" will have a shot at exaltation, or what Mormons might term eternal bliss. And I suppose as the teaching in the Church goes--those who will be relegated to the lower levels will be happy enough there. They couldn't really stand being granted eternal bliss because they couldn't live with themselves knowing they were granted the pedestal that Mormons were granted...So in a sense they get eternal bliss because that's all they could have gotten anyway. Yes, talk about mental gymnastics.
Let's think of it this way, since you are hung up on this arbitrariness I mentioned. Every single person on this earth has repented of something (we're going to leave out any psychopaths you might have in mind, if you would, for the sake of this discussion). I'm making an assumption I guess. But I can't imagine anyone who has lived not living more than say 20 years and not felt bad about something he/she did and wanted to change or improve. No one has not sinned (let's leave Jesus out for the sake of discussing this). And it is likely true, I'm assuming, no one has ever accounted for every wrong deed (be it thought or action) he/she has done, not even the bestest of the best Mormon. If the problem we face is in order to really repent someone has to accomplish the five steps unofficially taught by Mormons, well then, arbitrariness is paramount. As it is most of humanity likely never categorized repentance that way, and perhaps never really ever used that term in the first place. And why has most of humanity not done the 5 steps, in order, and named them as such? Because they simply didn't arrive at a certain time and place. So we're left with a couple of options, and please feel free to comment if you disagree:
1. Our ability and option to receive eternal bliss largely depends on something we did or thought before we ever came to earth, and those deeds are erased from our minds.
2. Arbitrariness. It all depends on random chance where and when you are, and nearly everything as it pertains to the chance at eternal bliss hinges on where and when you are.
So, as it is, and as I've concluded, achieving eternal bliss sounds like hell to me. I can't imagine sitting on a throne above them all under such conditions. I'd rather end myself. And if I couldn't end myself I'd consider it hell. In my estimation anyone who can imagine themselves exalted above them all under such conditions has a really sad view of humanity. Hey, all the power to such believers. Have at it. I simply can't do it and can't imagine why anyone would.