MDB Bible Study

[_Res Ipsa]

I re-read the post you linked to. I really like it. People wrote the Old Testament in a historical and sociological context. I think it's important to try and understand why they wrote what they did and what they were trying to communicate. But if the question is what can we learn from those writings today, I think we have to apply our current morals and ethics. That's not to judge the past using values of the present, but understanding that the writings come from a much different time and society.

They were telling the story of their tribe (s). That's what they were trying to communicate.

Absolutely it was the story of their tribe. But I don't think they were trying to communicate "here's the story of our tribe." I think it was a story intended to communicate what was special about their tribe, to explain bad things that had and were happening to them, and to hold out hope for a better future.

[_Some Schmo]

But as far as what you suggest: Yes, I would agree that religions have evolved over time (Mormonism is a very good example of that in my opinion) - But how do you think (if you think?) that biblical Christianity has evolved over time?

I think it's evolved the same way all religions have evolved, in a way that makes it palatable to modern Christians. Had it not evolved, it would have died.

And as I mentioned, it evolved into several different flavors of Christianity. There isn't just one Christian church - there are several slightly different ones (cousins), but they all have a common ancestor.

That's why the older a religion is, the less their adherents generally take it seriously.

This strikes me as completely false on a variety of levels. Jews don't take Judaism seriously? Biblical Christians don't take Biblical Christianity seriously? Muslims don't take Islam seriously? Buddhists don't take Buddhism seriously?

I don't think the adherents of any of these religions are, on average, as zealous about their religions as say Scientologists or Mormons, no. They certainly aren't as nutty about it as adherents of America's most recent cult, Trumpism. (And by the way, as I understand it, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion).

One of the reasons Catholics are my favorite is because out of everyone I've met, they seem to take their religion the least seriously by far.

I realize this is anecdotal, and I could be completely wrong. It's just an impression of mine.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, RI

I don't know if you've been told about the Mormon story of religious history. If you have, skip this paragraph and the next one.

Yes, I have.............. So I'll take your gracious offer to skip down to the later portion of your post and offer a few comments from my perspective.

His original followers were Jews. What did it mean for a Jew to become a follower of Jesus?

Indeed. What could possibly be the reason/reasons for a bunch of 1st century devout Jews to radically change/drop their past beliefs/practices (animal sacrifice, Temple work, Pharisee's, etc) ending with their refusal to renounce their testimony of seeing/touching a physically risen Christ (Lord/God) - costing them their very lives.

There's a million things the followers of Jesus had to figure out. It took them years to even figure out which of the many Jesus stories floating around were going to be considered official, let alone develop a whole theology around him.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? The core of Christianity (Jesus was crucified, Jesus died and Jesus rose from the dead) was cemented very, very early in scriptural creeds. The great majority of modern New Testament scholars (no matter if they are believers, agnostics or non-believers) all agree that these teachings/beliefs (Jesus was crucified, Jesus was dead and people claimed to see a physical risen Jesus) are very, very early. Some say within a year or 2 - others say within weeks/months of the cross.

In particular, there were two pieces of Christian theology that I just couldn't see in the words of Jesus: saving by faith alone and the trinity.

Jesus teaches on salvation by faith:

Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Mark 2:5
And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Luke 8:12
"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Jesus on the Trinity
Note: It would be almost impossible to fully support the teachings of the Trinity using only the teachings of Jesus. Supporting the entire doctrine on a Biblical-basis requires incorporating many other passages from both the Old and New Testaments. (The word Trinity is not found in the Bible) Having said that, here are a few Jesus verses that are at least interesting as it relates to the Trinity.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB)
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

John 5:17-18 (NASB)
But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 8:48-59 (NASB)
The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 10:25-38 (NASB)
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

John 14:9-17 (NASB)
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16:12-15 (NASB)
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Christianity has had an enormous impact on the world I've lived in. It's kind of refreshing to think about it in terms of how it came about and what it means as opposed to arguing over whether it is true.

Understood. My hope is to not argue - rather, my hope is to simply suggest the following: If Christianity is not true, it's completely meaningless (Considering who Jesus claimed he was (God)) I reject the idea that Jesus was merely a good teacher or a decent man or a pleasant fellow who had good ideas. (I personally find these things to be preposterous - Given the claims made) - And if Jesus is who he claimed to be (God entering his very creation) then I can't think of anything that could be more important.

Thanks for asking.

You're welome.

Thank you for sharing a part of your journey and thank you for the thread contributions.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, POOM

I think it's evolved the same way all religions have evolved, in a way that makes it palatable to modern Christians. Had it not evolved, it would have died.

I would suggest that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, Christianity would have died.

And as I mentioned, it evolved into several different flavors of Christianity. There isn't just one Christian church - there are several slightly different ones (cousins), but they all have a common ancestor.

Sounds like a raccoon/whale discussion ( Just Joking) :)

Indeed, there are several flavors of Christianity - the great majority of these are due to things like (baptize by sprinkling or submersion, Gifts of the spirit ending after Pentecost (Cessationism), Priestly authorities, Holy Eucharist, Calvinism, etc, etc) - The Christian body (for the most part - there are always exceptions) finds common ground on what I call majoring in the majors. Majors being: Christ died - Christ rose from the dead - Christ is God.

They certainly aren't as nutty about it as adherents of America's most recent cult, Trumpism.

Tempting.........But I'll simply pass.

(And by the way, as I understand it, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion).

Buddhism is a religion that was founded by Siddhartha Gautama (“the Buddha”) more than 2,500 years ago in India. With about 470 million followers, scholars consider Buddhism one of the major world religions.

One of the reasons Catholics are my favorite is because out of everyone I've met, they seem to take their religion the least seriously by far.

From my view/understanding/experience, that's completely untrue.

[_RockSlider]

I've run across a new podcast that features some very serious Phd's who are experts on Old Testament/New Testament. For some serious Bible Study, check it out

MythVision Podcast

[Guest]

If you would like to prepare for the next Bible study - it will be on one of the parables that Jesus used to teach. It will be on the Sower and the Seed (I will be using the book of Matthew)

Matthew chapter 13:1-23

I am preparing this study for my in real life Bible study group (We meet this Thursday) - So after that, I will write up a condensed version for here. God willing, I hope to post it here shortly after Thursday.

(Edited due to a spelling mistake that was graciously pointed out by my dear friend, Chap)

[_Some Schmo]

I think it's evolved the same way all religions have evolved, in a way that makes it palatable to modern Christians. Had it not evolved, it would have died.

I would suggest that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, Christianity would have died.

Well sure. And if the rebels hadn't stolen the plans for the death star, there wouldn't be much of a rebellion.

But I'm talking about history, not plot points.

[_Chap]

If you would like to prepare for the next Bible study - it will be on one of the parables that Jesus used to teach. It will be on the Sower and the Seed (I will be using the book of Mathew)

Mathew chapter 13:1-23

I am preparing this study for my in real life Bible study group (We meet this Thursday) - So after that, I will write up a condensed version for here. God willing, I hope to post it here shortly after Thursday.

Umm, the book originally called Εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Μαθθαῖον is normally rendered into English as The Gospel According to Matthew, surely? And with two 't's, to match the two 'theta's in the supposed writer's name in Greek. Just saying.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Chap

If you would like to prepare for the next Bible study - it will be on one of the parables that Jesus used to teach. It will be on the Sower and the Seed (I will be using the book of Mathew)

Mathew chapter 13:1-23

I am preparing this study for my in real life Bible study group (We meet this Thursday) - So after that, I will write up a condensed version for here. God willing, I hope to post it here shortly after Thursday.

Umm, the book originally called Εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Μαθθαῖον is normally rendered into English as The Gospel According to Matthew, surely? And with two 't's, to match the two 'theta's in the supposed writer's name in Greek. Just saying.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

[_Res Ipsa]

Hey Ceeboo,

I appreciate the references. I do understand that one can pull examples from the gospels to show that faith is necessary for salvation. But none of the quotes specifically address whether faith alone is sufficient. If faith alone is necessary for salvation, then this story, for example, is difficult to understand.

Matthew 19:16-24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [a]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

If salvation is by faith alone, then the answer to the man's questions should have been something like: "You don't have to do anything, for salvation is by faith alone." But Jesus didn't say anything like that -- he told the man to keep the commandments. And then he told him to give away his riches and follow him. So the answer was that he needed to do all kinds of things -- not just have faith.

Figuring out the relationship between faith and action and salvation has been been a struggle for Christianity for about 2000 years. The early church had to wrestle with it when the exclusively Jewish followers of Christ started to preach to the Gentiles. They had to figure out whether Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be a follower of Christ. I think it was Paul who said that Gentiles didn't have to become Jews and be circumcised, etc. in order to become Christians -- their faith was good enough. Yet, salvation by faith alone (sola fide) was not accepted by Christianity for over 1400 years until the reformation. And even today, not all Protestant sects adhere to sola fide.

in my opinion, stories like the rich man and the extent to which Jesus taught people new rules for how to live are inconsistent with sola fide. Looking at the history of Christian theology shows how doctrines involving the role of faith and action developed and changed over time.

Likewise with the Trinity. The several verses you cited don't describe the the Trinity. The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit was the subject of many different theories in the early days. Trinitarianism won the day. But you can even see in the evolution of the Nicene creed how the doctrine developed. As to the Holy Ghost, the first version ended "And in the Holy Ghost." The next version added:

the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.

And the addition of the words "and from the Son" following "the Father" was a major issue in the Great Schism that represented the first significant division in Christianity.

And so my point is the same. The relationship among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not obvious based on the words of Jesus. It was up to the Christians themselves to figure that out, and it took around 300 years to do it.

Interesting stuff, at least to me. I've finished the course now -- it went through the history of various Protestant sects, ending with fundamentalism and evangelism. It covered Catholicism through Vatican II, with a discussion of a couple more recent issues.