Hey RI
Res Ipsa wrote:
I appreciate the references.
No problem. I appreciate your contributions.
I do understand that one can pull examples from the gospels to show that faith is necessary for salvation. But none of the quotes specifically address whether faith alone is sufficient.
No? Let's take a look at a few.
Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."Other than her faith, what saved this woman?
Mark 2:5
And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."Other than this paralytics faith, how were his sins forgiven? (sins forgiven = saved)
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. Meaning if you believe, you will not die in your sins (salvation) What else was required other than believing?
If faith alone is necessary for salvation, then this story, for example, is difficult to understand.
Matthew 19:16-24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [a]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
If salvation is by faith alone, then the answer to the man's questions should have been something like: "You don't have to do anything, for salvation is by faith alone." But Jesus didn't say anything like that -- he told the man to keep the commandments. And then he told him to give away his riches and follow him. So the answer was that he needed to do all kinds of things -- not just have faith.
In telling the young man to keep the commandments, Jesus was not saying that he could be saved by obeying the commandments; rather, Jesus was emphasizing the Law as God’s perfect standard. If you can keep the Law perfectly, then you can escape sin’s penalty—but no one can - "No not one". When the man responded that he met the Law’s standard, Jesus simply touched on one issue that proved the man did not measure up to God’s holiness. The man was not willing to follow the Lord, if that meant he must give up his wealth. Thus, the man was breaking the two greatest commands; he did not love his neighbor as himself, and he did not love the Lord with all his heart. He loved himself (and his money) more. Far from keeping “all” the commandments, as he had claimed, the man was a sinner like everyone else. The Law proved it and that is what Jesus was teaching (again)
Figuring out the relationship between faith and action and salvation has been been a struggle for Christianity for about 2000 years.
I understand your point - In my mind, I would say that christian religions have been struggling with these things (Truth be told, I believe religions have placed countless people in the the pits of slavery and bondage, controlling them and trying to encourage them to earn their way to salvation by their own merits (Which can not be done) - but biblically speaking, it seem very clear that salvation is by faith alone by grace alone in Jesus alone. This was very very early 1st century.
The early church had to wrestle with it when the exclusively Jewish followers of Christ started to preach to the Gentiles. They had to figure out whether Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be a follower of Christ. I think it was Paul who said that Gentiles didn't have to become Jews and be circumcised, etc. in order to become Christians -- their faith was good enough. Yet, salvation by faith alone (sola fide) was not accepted by Christianity for over 1400 years until the reformation.
Wasn't accepted for over 1400 years? WHAT! Where did you hear this?
in my opinion, stories like the rich man and the extent to which Jesus taught people new rules for how to live are inconsistent with sola fide.
I appreciate your opinion and I thank you for sharing it with me (Knowing that you are not a believer and knowing that I am makes the communication we are having much more valuable and meaningful to me. I appreciate you engaging in such a thread. Kudos to you, friend) :)
Just to give you my perspective on this: Jesus taught in many ways - Jesus taught in parables - Jesus taught of spiritual things - But Jesus never taught people new rules for how to live.
Looking at the history of Christian theology shows how doctrines involving the role of faith and action developed and changed over time.
I simply don't see this. If you would like to elaborate, I will try to engage. If not, no worries.
Likewise with the Trinity. The several verses you cited don't describe the the Trinity.
Yes, I know. Here is what I said in my last post:
Jesus on the Trinity
Note: It would be almost impossible to fully support the teachings of the Trinity using only the teachings of Jesus. Supporting the entire doctrine on a Biblical-basis requires incorporating many other passages from both the Old and New Testaments. (The word Trinity is not found in the Bible) Having said that, here are a few Jesus verses that are at least interesting as it relates to the Trinity.
And so my point is the same. The relationship among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not obvious based on the words of Jesus. It was up to the Christians themselves to figure that out, and it took around 300 years to do it.
300 years to do it? Where did you here this?
So, do you accept that the last book of the Bible (John) was written by 80ad? If not, we can come back to this and discuss. If you do, here are some scriptures that speak about the Trinity:
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.Lord Jesus, God, Holy Spirit
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.Holy Spirit, Jesus
Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,All three here
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”All three here
Romans 14:17-18
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.All three here
Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.2 here
1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.All 3 here
1 Peter 1:2
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.All 3 here
Interesting stuff, at least to me. I've finished the course now -- it went through the history of various Protestant sects, ending with fundamentalism and evangelism. It covered Catholicism through Vatican II, with a discussion of a couple more recent issues.
Sounds very interesting.
Thanks so much for engaging - much appreciated.
