Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location

[_BrianH]

Since the Lord has not revealed the location of where the Book of Mormon narrative took place, we can look at parallels with other cultures to deduce what real-world place is a likely place for the civilizations described in the scripture to determine where it most likely took place.

According to the Joseph Smith History canonized in The Pearl of Great Price, the angel Moroni told him that the golden plates were "an account of the former inhabitants of this continent." Many readers assume that "this continent" means North America. However, a careful reading of D&C 133 indicates that all the land mass in the world is really one continent from the Lord's point of view:

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.

D&C 133. Therefore, it is clear that "this continent" means "the earth," and we should not assume that "this continent" means only North America, as other readers have incorrectly concluded. Because the entire earth is "this continent," the Book of Mormon taking place in Europe is really not a problem if we understand how the Lord reckons things.

Key features of Book of Mormon geography are that there is a western sea and an eastern sea and the land is longer from north to south than from east to west.

Boo-yah!



Also important in Book of Mormon geography is the river Sidon, the only river mentioned by name, which stretched north and south. Although some believe that the Sidon ran northward, the text of the Book of Mormon does not actually say that, and it is more likely that the river Sidon ran to the southwest and emptied into the sea west. Like this:



Volcanic activity also appears to play a role in Book of Mormon geography (3 Nephi 8:5-18). Vesuvius and Mount Etna, anyone?

What about some of the features of the civilizations themselves? I don't have time right now to explain how the Jaredites were the Etruscans, so let's just look at some highlights of Jaredite and Nephite civilization and their parallels in ancient Italy.

Buildings and structures made of cement? Check. (Note that concrete is cement with additional ingredients.)

Barley and other grains? Check.

Silk? Yes sir.

Complex roads/highways? You bet.

Metal swords? You better believe it.

Breastplates, helmets, and other armor for soldiers? You tell me:



Horses? Yes.

Elephants, goats, cattle, swine, flocks? Indeed.

Chariots? Come on, you've seen Ben Hur.



Metallurgy? Of course.

Gold, silver, pearls, costly apparel? Yes, sir.

An urbanized, agrarian society? That's exactly what the ancient Romans were.

Writing? Check it out:



A lunar and solar calendar? Another bull's eye!

Fortifications in times of war? They had that, too:



One puzzler, at first glance, might be: how did the golden plates end up buried in upstate New York when the Book of Mormon happened in Italy? The Book of Mormon describes three times when the Lord inspired people to make a journey by sea: the Jaredites, the Lehite party, and the Mulekites. There is no reason not to suppose that the Lord could not have also inspired Moroni to journey across the sea (and probably instruct him how to build a vessel, as with Nephi and the brother of Jared).

Incidentally, placing the Book of Mormon in ancient Italy also resolves that old chestnut critics like to point out that there are Greek names in the Book of Mormon, like Lachoneus, Timothy, and Alpha and Omega. It is well known that the Romans were heavily influenced by Greece, and that Greek was widely spoken in the Roman Empire. Thus, this so-called mistake of Greek names is dead and buried. There are also many aspects of Rome's interaction with Egypt, which interestingly parallels the Egyptian fetish we seem to find repeatedly in the Book of Mormon.

The above is just a brief introduction, but it should at least give the critics pause that maybe their issue with the Book of Mormon is that they're looking in the wrong place.

Wow ...its weird. I was just reviewing some pictures from the Hubble revealing in great detail some of the surface features on Mars. I spotted virtually 100% accurate contours that match the geographic details of middle Italy. Just as I was about to gasp, I was set back in my chair by what appeared to be a small stack of golden plates.

This PROVES it. The Book of Mormon is from MARS, and it was returned there to guide the people of Mars who are 7' tall, live for a thousand years and drive "chariots" that look suspiciously like Amish buggies.

-BH

.

[_Darth J]

In a recent thread, board member and moderator Stormy Waters has noted some of the fanciful speculation regarding the "skin of blackness" that the Nephites observed among their Lamanite antagonists in The Book of Mormon. As with other aspects of The Book of Mormon, the contrast between those of "white" skin considering themselves to be righteous and the judgmental pronouncements they gave to those of dark skin perfectly fits an ancient Italian setting for this holy scripture.

In reading ancient Mediterranean texts like The Book of Mormon, we must be careful not to impose our presentist assumptions on what the authors were recording. Many modern Caucasian people believe that a suntan is a desirable, even prestigious feature. But it was not so in ancient Greece and Italy. Ancient Italians believed that pale skin was a sign of wealth and class, while skin that had been tanned by the Sun was the sure mark of a slave or servant.

http://thecourieronline.co.uk/2012/11/a ... -fake-tan/

Right up until the 1920s, the big idea was that pale is beautiful. This was mainly because having a suntan was seen as being poor. In Ancient Rome, for example, the lady of the house would have had servants and slaves to do the errands. Heaven forbid that you would be outside doing this yourself, with the sun burning your precious skin. In short, being pale meant being wealthy.

In fact, members of the upper class in ancient Italy would often use cosmetics to enhance a pale tone for their skin.

http://www.guide4living.com/skincancer/sun-tan.htm

But a sun tan in bygone centuries was confined to the poor and those working as servants or on the fields.

Back in the days of Ancient Rome and Greece a tan was a complete "no no". Women used lead paint to whiten their faces - unfortunately they didn't realise they were killing themselves through lead poisoning and premature death was quite common!

http://www.glamoursurf.com/articles/art ... 110992.htm

Women of ancient Greece and Rome used lead paints and chalks to whiten their faces. Unfortunately this beauty treatment could cause death through slow lead poisoning. By the mid-10th century, arsenic became the preferred skin whitener, once again with sometimes deadly results. During the reign of Queen Elizabeth, women painted thin blue lines of their foreheads to give their skin a translucent look, and carried parasols or wore masks whenever they ventured outdoors.

Skin color became that visible definer - one that separated working classes from the ruling classes. Pale skin belonged to the leisure upper classes, while darker skin indicated a life of outdoor labor. The paler one's skin the higher the class, and men and women went to great lengths to be pale.

Before the Industrial Revolution - bronzed bodies belonged to manual laborers. To be brown in those days was a symbol of low social class. Pale, porcelain skin was in vogue - mainly because rich people stayed indoors.

Now, we must remember who it was that authored The Book of Mormon. It was the upper class. Nephi was the son of a wealthy man (Lehi), and became a king over his people after reaching the Italian peninsula. Mormon and Moroni, who compiled the Nephite records, were military leaders, a class held in high esteem in the ancient Roman world. And we can reasonably infer that the authors whose work Mormon compiled were of the upper class, since they were largely descended from kings (or reges nefitorum, as the people of the ancient Italian peninsula would have said) and obviously had the leisure time and resources to become educated in esoteric matters such as reading and writing in reformed Egyptian. Plus the plates on which The Book of Mormon was inscribed were made of gold, which has since time immemorial been a symbol of wealth and prestige.

It is no wonder, then, that the upper-class keepers of these records would look down upon those who engaged in manual, outdoor labor---which The Book of Mormon explicitly tells us to be the case with the Lamanites. Naturally, the patrician Nephites would have considered their lower-class Lamanite bretheren to have become "dark" and "loathsome." As the Lamanites rejected the prosperity gospel of the upper-class Nephites and were constrained to perform what the Nephite kings and patricians considered to be servile, menial work out of doors, the intense Mediterranean sun would have given the Lamanites a healthy brown tan. Anyone who has "boots on the ground" experience with a summer or two in Italy can attest to this fact, but unfortunately many of those who speculate about Book of Mormon geography have little or no experience with the peninsula where the Book of Mormon peoples lived.

The suntan that would have occurred from laboring outside under the intense Mediterranean sun also explains why The Book of Mormon indicates that the Lamanites took on a dark skin tone almost immediately after rejecting the prosperity gospel for a life of hardship and manual labor. We see also in The Book of Mormon an account of a few Lamanites who left their decadent fellows and reunited with the Nephites, whereupon the Lamanites' skins very suddenly became white like unto the Nephites. This of course is perfectly consistent with these Lamanites adopting the Nephites' upper-class lifestyle, which would cause their tans to fade because they would have ceased their outdoor menial labor. And of course the treatments that upper-class females used in ancient Italy to make their skins more pale would contribute to the sudden whitening of the Lamanites' skins.

Although it may at first appear troubling to us to consider that the ancient Italian Nephite prophets harshly judged the class and suntans of the Lamanites, we must remember that prophets are not perfect, and have prejudices and cultural norms like all of us do. Keep in mind that the first page of The Book of Mormon tells us that if the book contains errors, they are the errors of men.

The harmony between the text of The Book of Mormon and the realities of life in ancient Italy should certainly give critics pause, as well. The class distinction between light-skinned patrician Nephites and dark-skinned menial Lamanites, and the sudden changes in skin tones when individuals associated with one group of the other, are exactly the kinds of details we would expect to find in a text written in the ancient Mediterranean world. These are also the kinds of historical details that an uneducated Yankee farm boy in New York could not possibly have guessed. As these evidences of an ancient Italian setting for The Book of Mormon continue to mount, those who would dispute its historicity would do well to consider how they intend to explain away all these bull's eyes.

[_Maksutov]

Here is my contribution to this marvelous work and a wonder...behold, the missing links! Romans in America! A new school of Mopology is born!

Roman archaeological evidences in the New World:



http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 63632.html

http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/artic ... anbust.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_artifacts

https://www.azpm.org/p/top-news/2013/3/ ... an-colony/

[_ludwigm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_artifacts wrote:

"It comprised thirty-one lead objects consisting of crosses, swords, and religious/ceremonial paraphernalia, most of which contained Hebrew or Latin engraved inscriptions, pictures of temples, leaders' portraits, angels, and even what appears to be a diplodocus dinosaur."

The diplodocus dinosaur is the most convincing item.

Only Bigfoot could trump it.

[_il libro di mormon]

Even more evidence for the Book of Mormon taking place in Italy:

1) Lawyers? Seems a poor fit for ancient Mesoamerica, but perfectly fits the Roman world. The Romans were arguably among the most legally minded of all peoples. Lawyers, lawsuits, courts, etc. were a fixture of life in ancient Italy.

2) People distinguished by their chances for learning? Acquaintance with literature, philosophy, and history were highly prized among the Roman elite as marks of a truly civilized person.

3) Precious metals used for coinage? Not in ancient America as far as we know, but ubiquitous in the Roman world. I myself have a collection of ancient Roman coins. Who knows how many Nephites handled the very sestertius that I am looking at right now on my desk!

4) Title of Liberty / Republican vs. Monarchy forms of government? Again seems out of place in 1st century B.C. Americas but is a bullseye for 1st century B.C. Italy. In Italy during that precise time we observe a great struggle between the supporters of the ancient liberties of the Roman Republic and the “king-men” who supported the likes of Julius Caesar and Augustus.

5) Debates about infant baptism in 400 A.D.? Hard to find any evidence that infant baptism was a pressing concern or even practiced in ancient Mesoamerica. What about Italy? Yes! We know that the abomination of infant baptism was already a widespread practice by that time, although some Christians, like the prophet Mormon, continued to argue that baptism should be delayed until later in life.

6) Concern about preserving the proper prayers for administering the Sacrament in 400 A.D.? Again, no evidence for this in ancient Mesoamerica. But we do have evidence that the sacrament prayers were already corrupted by the 3rd century in Italy. The so-called “Apostolic Tradition”, supposedly written by Hippolytus of Rome, contains the following apostate prayer for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper:

“We give thanks to you God, through your beloved son Jesus Christ, whom you sent to us in former times as Savior, Redeemer, and Messenger of your Will, who is your inseparable Word, through whom you made all, and in whom you were well-pleased, whom you sent from heaven into the womb of a virgin, who, being conceived within her, was made flesh, and appeared as your Son, born of the Holy Spirit and the virgin. It is he who, fulfilling your will and acquiring for you a holy people, extended his hands in suffering, in order to liberate from sufferings those who believe in you. Who, when he was delivered to voluntary suffering, in order to dissolve death, and break the chains of the devil, and tread down hell, and bring the just to the light, and set the limit, and manifest the resurrection, taking the bread, and giving thanks to you, said, ‘Take, eat, for this is my body which is broken for you.’ Likewise the chalice, saying, ‘This is my blood which is shed for you. Whenever you do this, do this memory of me.’

Therefore, remembering his death and resurrection, we offer to you the bread and the chalice, giving thanks to you, who has made us worthy to stand before you and to serve as your priests. And we pray that you would send your Holy Spirit to the oblation of your Holy Church. In their gathering together, give to all those who partake of your holy mysteries the fullness of the Holy Spirit, toward the strengthening of the faith in truth, that we may praise you and glorify you, through your son Jesus Christ, through whom to you be glory and honor, Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit, in your Holy Church, now and throughout the ages of the ages. Amen.”

Compare the above with what is found in Moroni chapters 4 & 5 and it’s pretty clear why Moroni found it necessary to inscribe the true sacrament prayers onto the Golden Plates.

7) Moroni quoting the Epistles of Paul? Anti-Mormon critics are always bringing up how Moroni apparently quotes the apostle Paul when he writes about faith, hope, and charity. How could an ancient American have had access to Paul’s writings? But this problem vanishes away once we understand that the Book of Mormon took place in Italy. We know for certain that the epistles of Paul were available and read in 5th century Italy.

8) Great battle at Cumorah and downfall of the Nephite civilization in the late 4th century? To date LDS apologists who insist on an ancient American setting for the Book of Mormon have searched in vain for a plausible site for this epic battle. But once our focus shifts to the ancient Mediterranean we have a perfect candidate: the battle of Adrianople. Although it did not take place in Italy itself, the loss of this battle to the Goths (Lamanites?) was a catastrophe to Roman civilization. To quote the illustrious Wikipedia, “the battle is often considered the start of the final collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century.” Note also that the footnotes in the Book of Mormon give an approximate date of 385 A.D. for the final battle at Cumorah – the battle of Adrianople took place in 378 A.D. Coincidence? You be the judge. How could a practically illiterate farm boy in rural New York have possibly been acquainted in such detail with the history of the later Roman Empire? Remember that the Book of Mormon was written long before Wikipedia and Google came online.

9) A period of great peace and prosperity followed by a period of strife and persecution of true Christians? It’s hard to find a good match for this in what we know of ancient American history. What about Italy? Once again we have a match! The great Pax Romana of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. corresponds almost perfectly with what we read in 4th Nephi (taking into account some exaggeration and artistic license on Mormon’s part). In 4th Nephi we also see this period of peace breaking down in the 3rd century A.D., which is precisely when the Roman world was troubled by civil wars and great internal instability. We also have in that same time period evidence of wide scale persecution of Christian believers, first under the emperor Decius and later under the emperor Diocletian. If you believe that an uneducated farm boy in the backwoods of America was also an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you!

So in conclusion the evidence for an Italian setting for the Book of Mormon is overwhelming and can no longer be ignored. I predict that in the next few years we will hear general conference talks on this very subject. Then the Book of Mormon will turn from being a stumbling block for belief to taking its rightful place as the best evidence for the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith.

[_moksha]

Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location, could be a game-changer if presented at the 2020 FairMormon Conference to be held at the Square Dance Heritage Center in Mapleton Utah.

You could have a panel of cranks arguing against it afterward, but they would only be able to offer their testimonies rather than evidence to sustain their positions.

The most effective rebuttal would come from Dr. Louis Midgley, who would be armed with a bag of prunes to throw at Darth J, provided Dr. Midgley could find audience members with enough strength and aim to reach the stage.

[_Philo Sofee]

So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.

[_Dr Moore]

I wonder how much more convincing the Dale’s article would be if it drew upon Italian heritage civilizations instead of Mayan.

No doubt the correspondences would be more and therefore the lucky guessing 10^200 more impressive!!

[_Physics Guy]

My eye was just caught by the Friberg painting on the first page of this thread. The archers aren't just buff. They have weirdly thick forearms like toned-down Popeye. I've heard that longbowmen developed occupational deformities but I don't think it mainly affected forearms. Also many of the dudes appear to be lobbing arrows over a wall at enemies they can't see while that one guy in the red cape stands up there trying to get shot. Does the Book of Mormon by any chance record these people as losing this battle?

[_SteelHead]

So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.

There is a guy over on the mad board who continually posits a Malay peninsula setting. Much better fit than Central America - culture had metal working and horses.