The Gender-Equality Paradox. Feminism bad for STEM?

[_EAllusion]

Good lord.

So college male students don't want more female classmates?

Men wanting women around so they can “F” them as an explanation for why there wouldn't be discriminatory attitudes towards women in the workplace is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this forum. And Ajax posts here.

[Guest]

Discrimination and gender stereotypes may play a role. But I don't see how discrimination and gender stereotypes can fully explain the big big gap in Math 55. Harvard is aggressively fighting the STEM gap and it's students are really smart and mostly liberal, but there is still a big gap in Math 55. Universities can't force women to join STEM, and because women are not joining STEM the gender pay gap in the US isn't going to end any time soon, unless law-makers create sexists laws against men.

there wouldn't be discriminatory attitudes towards women in the workplace is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this forum. And Ajax posts here.

I bet a lot of students in STEM feel very lonely. It doesn't matter. Just forget about that. I just deleted that.

[_DoubtingThomas]

For Lemmie,

Your ‘super-cringey posts’ in this thread alone about feminism, gender, and what you think “women” are like make it seem as though you perceive every woman as some sort of generic thing, like a Stepford wife. You really need to speak to a therapist or counselor about this.

At the moment, women are like objects for me. Why? because women are nice and friendly when I give them a lot of money. To get an object I have to pay for it. To get some attention I have to pay for it. Of course I am talking about women in the Strip Club, the only place where women care about me and want to talk to me.

At work there are not a lot of women to talk to and I feel very lonely, so I sometimes go to the strip club to feel better. On dating apps there are no signs that women are interested in me, SETI is probably going to find ET before I find a good woman on a dating app.

When I go to places like buffalo wings, nobody talks to me. Yes I go alone.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

DT,

Look at this image. Now really, really look at this image, and then draw whatever conclusion you must from it:



- Doc

[_EAllusion]

there wouldn't be discriminatory attitudes towards women in the workplace is one of the dumbest things I've seen on this forum. And Ajax posts here.

I bet a lot of students in STEM feel very lonely. It doesn't matter. Just forget about that. I just deleted that.

I'm a fairly nerdy person and as such, I have some nerdy hobbies. I've been known to go to a local gaming store to play games from to time. It's not as extreme as it once was, but geeky hobbies still are an area where men outnumber women by a fair amount. When women, especially attractive women, enter those spaces, sometimes the thirst is palpable. On the one hand, plenty of the men clearly want them there if only because of the attraction. Yet when I've talked to some of those women about how they are treated, they talk about having to endure a lot to be there. More specifically, they all have stories of being awkwardly hit on in a way that makes them uncomfortable. Geeky interests tend to attract people on the spectrum, and I've witnessed people do this to the point my sense of vicarious embarrassment made me want to crawl in a hole and die. But the bigger complaint I've heard is they get a lot of condescension. A lot. Because they are women, it's assumed by some of those men that they aren't as authentic or knowledgeable as they are about their supposedly shared interest. Those women stick it out, if they do, because they enjoy the hobby and can brush it off.

I can only imagine if you showed up DT and explained that the environment can't possibly be discriminatory to them because obviously lots of men would like them there so they can try to “F” them. That's one of the problems, my man.

[_Res Ipsa]

As an aside, EA, I think I out nerd you on the board gaming scene. ;-) I’ve absolutely seen what you describe over the years. In my area, there’s been a conscious effort within the gaming community to become more inclusive. As a result, I see the male gamer superiority complex less and less now. My FLGS is filled with ass-kicking women, which tends to take the wind out of the gas bags.

[_EAllusion]

As an aside, EAllusion, I think I out nerd you on the board gaming scene. ;-) I’ve absolutely seen what you describe over the years. In my area, there’s been a conscious effort within the gaming community to become more inclusive. As a result, I see the male gamer superiority complex less and less now. My FLGS is filled with ass-kicking women, which tends to take the wind out of the gas bags.

I bet you got me beat.

I go to an LGS about twice a week give or take. My local scene has gotten better too, which is cool to see. It's not perfect, though. It's got a ways to go yet.

What's really neat is the youth scene has gender parity and it's treated as normal. You can see the future right there.

[_DoubtingThomas]

The male brain is more conducive to that. Then that too reversed. Teen females caught up to, and eventually passed their male counterparts. AP calculus classes? Women do better than men now. The gender gap reversal essentially rippled up the ranks of mathematical achievement with each step of the way having people argue that what male advantage remained was due to their biological advantage in the subject. Now, when women and men enter college, women on average outperform men in math in the US and the majority of economically developed societies. Go figure. My experience of gender gaps in math classes is a relic of the past. People who thought male-dominated math classes was a function of the order of nature should be embarrassed.

It is possible that more guys than girls simply don't care about school. It could be that only the smartest girls sign up for AP Math classes. Many guys in AP have the Dunning–Kruger effect because guys are more arrogant. Another possibility is that guys daydream a lot in class about you know what, according to some studies guys do day-dream more. So looking at averages isn't really useful without taking into account many factors.

https://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex- ... en-compare

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2763521/

According to an article in SA, "Whether a gender difference is found also depends on what type of math the kids are doing. In general, boys tend to outperform girls on tests that are less related to what is taught in schools (like the SAT math test, for example) whereas there tend to be minimal gender differences on statewide standards-based math tests, which are more tied to what’s taught in schools. When it comes to grades in school, which are even more closely tied to the curriculum, girls often outperform boys. A recent meta-analysis of research on the performance of students from elementary age through adulthood found boys tend to outperform girls in more complex areas of math such as those involving more advanced problem-solving. In contrast, there are no differences—and, in some cases, an advantage for girls—on more basic numerical skills and on math problems that have a set procedure for solving them."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... s-at-math/

What inappropriate conclusion? I wrote, "I think narrowing the STEM gender gap would eliminate the "gender pay gap" in the US". Even if the STEM gap is explained by discrimination and gender-stereotyping, it still wouldn't change the fact that the STEM gap explains much of the gender pay gap in the US. If politicians want to end the gender pay gap in the US, they should do something to end the STEM gap first.

I am still interested in your opinion.

[_DoubtingThomas]

DT,

Look at this image. Now really, really look at this image, and then draw whatever conclusion you must from it:

- Doc

I try to be happy.

[_DoubtingThomas]

Okay I did more research and it seems gender-stereotyping (not discrimination) is contributing a lot to the gender STEM gap. So what is the solution and how do you end the "gender pay gap" in the US?