Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Dr Moore]

Presenting a nonsensical “conjecture” and asking others to prove it is just trolling for attention.

Nope. I'm actually serious. Care to give it a go? No one else has so far. Except for Dr. Moore and Gadianton...but I think they may have been barking up the wrong tree and haven't responded back yet in regards to their original assertion.

Regards,
MG

MG, I do not understand what you mean by "barking up the wrong tree"? Please explain why this is the case. You wondered out loud if the Book of Mormon chiasms might be found to contain purely ancient material, as a sort of sign of the ancient Hebraic origins for the book. Yet, when contrary evidence was offered, you did nothing of substance with that evidence. For Alma 5, you posted a quote about another part of Alma 5, but you did not explain how the song of redeeming love is not a blatant ripoff of the popular 19th century hymn (a.k.a., song), Redeeming Love. Joseph no doubt felt moved at times when his whole family attended together and sang the song Redeeming Love together. It's his experience, the vernacular of his day speaking there about singing "the song of redeeming love" in Alma 5. That is an assertion. It is just one, a single ball lobbed into your court. You've done nothing with it. You certainly have not hit the ball back yet.

If you are indeed serious, then kindly start with demonstrating the Hebraic origin for singing the "song of redeeming love" -- and it needs to be pretty solid, because there is ample evidence on record (dozens of links available upon request) that this was a modern evangelical phrase popularized in hymns and sermons contemporary to Joseph Smith.

Other examples have been offered in this thread as well. You really have not responded to any of them, not seriously.

Trying to be generous MG, but you really do appear to be wasting our time.

ETA: see Interpreter volume 22 (2016) page 200 for a chiastic expansion, showing where "redeeming love" appears within the structure. The article was authored by Jeff Lindsay, titled "Arise from the Dust". The phrase also appears in the Book of Moses, another work of Joseph Smith claiming ancient origin but containing a healthy supply of 19th century material, as well as in later chapters of Alma.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, I do not understand what you mean by "barking up the wrong tree"? Please explain why this is the case. You wondered out loud if the Book of Mormon chiasms might be found to contain purely ancient material, as a sort of sign of the ancient Hebraic origins for the book. Yet, when contrary evidence was offered, you did nothing of substance with that evidence. For Alma 5, you posted a quote about another part of Alma 5, but you did not explain how the song of redeeming love is not a blatant ripoff of the popular 19th century hymn (a.k.a., song), Redeeming Love. Joseph no doubt felt moved at times when his whole family attended together and sang the song Redeeming Love together. It's his experience, the vernacular of his day speaking there about singing "the song of redeeming love" in Alma 5. That is an assertion. It is just one, a single ball lobbed into your court. You've done nothing with it. You certainly have not hit the ball back yet.

Would you point out the chiastic structure in Alma:5 ? Then show where "song of redeeming love" fits within that structure?

Thanks,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, I do not understand what you mean by "barking up the wrong tree"? Please explain why this is the case. You wondered out loud if the Book of Mormon chiasms might be found to contain purely ancient material, as a sort of sign of the ancient Hebraic origins for the book. Yet, when contrary evidence was offered, you did nothing of substance with that evidence. For Alma 5, you posted a quote about another part of Alma 5, but you did not explain how the song of redeeming love is not a blatant ripoff of the popular 19th century hymn (a.k.a., song), Redeeming Love. Joseph no doubt felt moved at times when his whole family attended together and sang the song Redeeming Love together. It's his experience, the vernacular of his day speaking there about singing "the song of redeeming love" in Alma 5. That is an assertion. It is just one, a single ball lobbed into your court. You've done nothing with it. You certainly have not hit the ball back yet.

Would you point out the chiastic structure in Alma:5 ? Then show where "song of redeeming love" fits within that structure?

Thanks,
MG

After making this post I'm revisiting Alma:5 again. I am also looking at the Interpreter article for the first time. I think I'm seeing what you're getting at. Let me do some more reading here.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, I do not understand what you mean by "barking up the wrong tree"? Please explain why this is the case. You wondered out loud if the Book of Mormon chiasms might be found to contain purely ancient material, as a sort of sign of the ancient Hebraic origins for the book. Yet, when contrary evidence was offered, you did nothing of substance with that evidence. For Alma 5, you posted a quote about another part of Alma 5, but you did not explain how the song of redeeming love is not a blatant ripoff of the popular 19th century hymn (a.k.a., song), Redeeming Love. Joseph no doubt felt moved at times when his whole family attended together and sang the song Redeeming Love together. It's his experience, the vernacular of his day speaking there about singing "the song of redeeming love" in Alma 5. That is an assertion. It is just one, a single ball lobbed into your court. You've done nothing with it. You certainly have not hit the ball back yet.

Would you point out the chiastic structure in Alma:5 ? Then show where "song of redeeming love" fits within that structure?

Thanks,
MG

"Sing redeeming love" is found in Alma 5: 7-9, specifically vs. 9. This is the chiasm pointed out by Parry. "Song of redeeming love" is in verse 26 of the same chapter. Verse 26 isn't included in the chiasm found in vs. 7-9. Am I missing something?

So, what you're saying is since the Book of Mormon contains "sing redeeming love" and "song of redeeming love"...even though they are not both found within the chiastic structure (at least if I'm reading correctly)...that this is evidence of Joseph's vernacular being found within a chiastic structure.

Do I have that right?

My original hypothesis was that it would be unlikely to find Joseph's vernacular within the structure of a chiasm.

Of course, we are also...or you are anyway...making an assumption that since "song of redeeming love" was being used in Joseph's milieu/environment that this is evidence of Joseph making stuff up. To me, it seems as though this particular phrase in the Book of Mormon...even if it's not contained within a chiastic structure...is something that is not worth pointing out as evidence of a fabrication. I would expect that this phrase along with many other 'gospelly' phrases would naturally show up in bona fide scripture. It's scripture talk.

If you took out all the words and phrases that are 'gospelly' what would you have left?

Yes, I've made up a new word. Gospelly. Like it?

Regards,
MG

[_Dr Moore]

The Interpreter article clearly shows “redeeming love” within the chiasm. It’s on the B level, as you can see. So that was my one and only point. It’s a Joseph Smith contemporary phrase, common vernacular of the day, and it is buried right there inside a chiasm. In my mind your theory on that particular point holds no water.

And this is only one example. To prove the negative, MG, the burden is on you to investigate all of the chiasms in the Book of Mormon and fact check every phrase, demonstrating ancient provenance.

Good luck!

[Guest]

The Interpreter article clearly shows “redeeming love” within the chiasm. It’s on the B level, as you can see. So that was my one and only point.

Ok. But it doesn't have the parallel usage within the structure.

It’s a Joseph Smith contemporary phrase, common vernacular of the day...

I think it would be contemporary with any period in history when talking 'gospelly'.

...and it is buried right there inside a chiasm.

As I've said, if you were to take all these 'gospelly' words/phrases out of purported scripture, you wouldn't have much left. I don't see the usage of "redeeming love" as being evidence one way or the other as to whether or not Joseph was fabricating scripture from whole cloth. I think that looking at the larger picture...chiasmus...is much more interesting/productive.

MG, the burden is on you to investigate all of the chiasms in the Book of Mormon and fact check every phrase, demonstrating ancient provenance.

That's not going to happen! I leave that to the experts and then try to get around and read what they have to say. Thanks for the link to the Interpreter article.

By the way, thanks for the civil exchange. I appreciate that. Not as common as I would hope on this board. That's why I thought it was time to bow earlier in the thread when one or two folks thought it was time to go with the personal insults/attacks. Or maybe that was over on another thread. I sometimes commingle things a bit. Getting old. As I've read your stuff here and there it appears to me that you have given things a fair amount of research and thought.

Have you also been through the formulaic prescription of study/ponder and pray? Have you asked God to guide you as you've used your own intellectual powers to determine what may be truth? Were you at one time an active Latter Day Saint?

If you'd rather not answer, that's OK. I just like to know a bit about who I'm talking to.

Regards,
MG

[_Dr Moore]

I would expect that this phrase along with many other 'gospelly' phrases would naturally show up in bona fide scripture. It's scripture talk.

If you took out all the words and phrases that are 'gospelly' what would you have left?

Ahem, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Exclusivity of ancient text in chiasm is theoretical proof of historicity, yet modern evangelical vernacular throughout proves scriptural integrity? Come now. That’s heads you win tails I lose.

So no matter what is proven through textual analysis, the Book of Mormon is a true scriptural record? Why are you here then?

Scripture as defined as a collection of inspiring phrases set against a fictional or non fictional story line, sure why not. But which one are you advocating exactly? Please pick a lane and stay there.

[_Dr Moore]

MG, let me just say that as far as practicing the spirit and letter of the prescribed Mormon path, I am a highly credible witness with over 40 years of dedicated hands on experience. And I am currently an active member with both eyes open looking for truth, wherever it lives.

[_mentalgymnast]

I would expect that this phrase along with many other 'gospelly' phrases would naturally show up in bona fide scripture. It's scripture talk.

If you took out all the words and phrases that are 'gospelly' what would you have left?

Ahem, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Exclusivity of ancient text in chiasm is theoretical proof of historicity, yet modern evangelical vernacular throughout proves scriptural integrity? Come now. That’s heads you win tails I lose.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't know that there is really any other way to approach it. No matter which direction we go we're always going to be forced to go with what we do know vs. what we don't know. Often what we do know is either precious little or has points of conflict/confrontation.

So no matter what is proven through textual analysis, the Book of Mormon is a true scriptural record? Why are you here then?

The Interpreter article you linked to is an example of textual analysis. But is one article...or two or ten...going to prove anything one way or the other? Probably not. Folks are, for one reason or another, going to continue on their own chosen path.

Scripture as defined as a collection of inspiring phrases set against a fictional or non fictional story line, sure why not.

My overall feeling is that there is something more than cognitive word play going on in the Book of Mormon. If I believed scripture...specifically the Book of Mormon...to be nothing more than fictional then I wouldn't waste my time having discussions with others. It wouldn't be worth my time.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, let me just say that as far as practicing the spirit and letter of the prescribed Mormon path, I am a highly credible witness with over 40 years of dedicated hands on experience. And I am currently an active member with both eyes open looking for truth, wherever it lives.

Thanks for that. May I ask one more question?

Is Jesus Christ still part of your open eyed search for truth?

Regards,
MG