Res Ipsa wrote: Naw, I meant more than food and clothes. People get their values from somewhere, and I think it's fair to say that that somewhere helps them be who they are. I formed lots of my values during my LDS upbringing. So, even though I am not a believing Mormon, I think it's fair to say that Mormonism helped me become who I am. And to the extent I still hold values formed during that upbringing, it's fair to say that Mormonism still helps me be the person I am.
Darn you RI I just got back home and was going to write about values! I don't see that the values we develop help us to be who we are. I think that the values we develop become parts of the whole of who we are.
I agree. I expressed the concept badly.
Did you buy red licorice?
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Listen I have got to decompress over here. I'll be back. I'll leave you nature/nurture folks with this to consider. Not formatting this properly.
Here is your development as a child exquisitely described in one fell swoop.
There was a child went forth every day Walt Whitman - 1819-1892
There was a child went forth every day, And the first object he looked upon and received with wonder or pity or love or dread, that object he became,
And that object became part of him for the day or a certain part of the day . . . . or for many years or stretching cycles of years.
The early lilacs became part of this child, And grass, and white and red morningglories, and white and red clover, and the song of the phœbe-bird, And the March-born lambs, and the sow's pink-faint litter, and the mare's foal, and the cow's calf, and the noisy brood of the barn-yard or by the mire of the pond-side . . and the fish suspending themselves so curiously below there . . . and the beautiful curious liquid . . and the water-plants with their graceful flat heads . . all became part of him.
And the field-sprouts of April and May became part of him . . . . wintergrain sprouts, and those of the light-yellow corn, and of the esculent roots of the garden, And the appletrees covered with blossoms, and the fruit afterward . . . . and woodberries . . and the commonest weeds by the road;
And the old drunkard staggering home from the outhouse of the tavern whence he had lately risen, And the schoolmistress that passed on her way to the school . . and the friendly boys that passed . . and the quarrelsome boys . . and the tidy and fresh-cheeked girls . . and the barefoot negro boy and girl, And all the changes of city and country wherever he went.
His own parents . . he that had propelled the fatherstuff at night, and fathered him . . and she that conceived him in her womb and birthed him . . . . they gave this child more of themselves than that, They gave him afterward every day . . . . they and of them became part of him.
The mother at home quietly placing the dishes on the suppertable, The mother with mild words . . . . clean her cap and gown . . . . a wholesome odor falling off her person and clothes as she walks by: The father, strong, self-sufficient, manly, mean, angered, unjust, The blow, the quick loud word, the tight bargain, the crafty lure, The family usages, the language, the company, the furniture . . . . the yearning and swelling heart,
Affection that will not be gainsayed . . . . The sense of what is real . . . . the thought if after all it should prove unreal, The doubts of daytime and the doubts of nighttime . . . . the curious whether and how, Whether that which appears so is so . . . . Or is it all flashes and specks? Men and women crowding fast in the streets . . if they are not flashes and specks what are they?
The streets themselves, and the façades of houses. . . . the goods in the windows, Vehicles . . teams . . the tiered wharves, and the huge crossing at the ferries; The village on the highland seen from afar at sunset . . . . the river between, Shadows . . aureola and mist . . light falling on roofs and gables of white or brown, three miles off, The schooner near by sleepily dropping down the tide . . the little boat slacktowed astern,
The hurrying tumbling waves and quickbroken crests and slapping; The strata of colored clouds . . . . the long bar of maroontint away solitary by itself . . . . the spread of purity it lies motionless in, The horizon's edge, the flying seacrow, the fragrance of saltmarsh and shoremud;
These became part of that child who went forth every day, and who now goes and will always go forth every day.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:Yes, I was describing a nature vs nurture dynamic. Tell me, if you will, how my biological makeup is my greatest influence. Since we're picking me apart and all.
Well, I'm not picking on you specifically; I believe everyone is more influenced by their biology than their environment.
Why do I think that? Lots of reasons, really. For one thing, I grew up in a family with lots of kids. We all grew up in the same basic environment, and yet were are all our own person. Some of us turned out secular, and some still go to church. What's the difference, if not our specific biology?
Why do I consider myself conservative and my brother considers himself liberal? Nobody taught us explicitly to be one way or the other. It's what's emerged as we've grown older, despite having very similar life experiences.
There's that old saying, When the student is ready, the teacher appears. To me, that's saying that we are influenced by our environment at the very moment we choose to be, and not one second before.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Res Ipsa wrote:TL/DR: I think value formation is a combination of nature and nurture. I think it's accurate to give credit to external sources that help us form our values.
I hear what you're saying, but now I find myself really keying on the word "credit."
I remember when I was a young adult trying to work out why my dad was attracted to the church in the first place. The conclusion I came to was that the missionaries who found him did so at just the right time in his life. I'm fairly certain that if it were Jehovah Witnesses or just about anyone else that spoke to him at that time, they would likely have enjoyed the same conversion success. He was in a bad place; someone offered him something he viewed as "better than that." When he saw what he thought were positive results, he attributed (credited) Mormonism with those results. Marketing is all about associating good feelings with a product (why we see sexy people in beer ads, for instance, or why advertisers pay star athletes ridiculous sums of money to shill for them). The Mormons were able to make that happen with my dad.
What he failed to do was give his own desire for something better some of that credit. It was the church, not his own actions in reaction to what he was learning, that improved his life. He was just a vessel from his perspective.
What I'm saying is that if it weren't Mormonism, it would have been something else, because he was searching.
It's kind of like dying of thirst, finding a bottle of Gatorade, chugging it, and the relief causing you to think that Gatorade is the one true thirst quencher. It wasn't the Gatorade; it was the conditions of your mental experience.
I'll never deny religion has utility. It most certainly does. But just like any tool, it needs to be relegated to its proper place. A hammer is useless without someone to hold it.
Interesting. I wouldn't say that Gatorade was the one true thirst quencher. But I would say that the bottle of Gatorade saved my life.
If I wanted to drive a nail, a hammer alone wouldn't work. But neither would banging my hand against the nail.
In the case of your father, I understand. People who are desperate are likely to latch on to something. But maybe if Mormonism hadn't been there, your father would not have latched on to anything. I think I wrote about a young woman who threw herself in front of a train last summer. I wish she'd have found something to latch onto. if she had, I think it would have been accurate to say that whatever it was saved her life.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Res Ipsa wrote:I agree. I expressed the concept badly.
Did you buy red licorice?
Yeah, we're going back to schema land if you haven't figured that out yet. :-)
No candy. We went out to what you'd think of as the corner store only the corner is a couple miles away from the house. It's 8 degrees "feels like" -11. Snow packed and icy. Going to snow again tonight and I was about to go entirely insane if I didn't get out. So...I climbed into a big 4WD in my pajamas (with UGG boots carrying a Coach Purse, not joking) and my taxi driver got me there and back again. ;-)
Milk. All I got was lousy milk. I was hoping for Goldfish crackers at least. All they had was high sodium and high sugar snacks. And I don't really do that.
Hmmmm…I can make hot cocoa!
I really need a break. I'll be back.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Res Ipsa wrote:Interesting. I wouldn't say that Gatorade was the one true thirst quencher. But I would say that the bottle of Gatorade saved my life.
In that circumstance, it might be a fair statement, but it would be misplaced respect to then put Gatorade on a pedestal.
If I wanted to drive a nail, a hammer alone wouldn't work. But neither would banging my hand against the nail.
True. So when you pick up the hammer and drive the nail home, who gets the credit, you or the hammer?
If you started extolling the virtues of the hammer, I would start to wonder about your sanity (or just suspect you really like your hammer more than most people).
In the case of your father, I understand. People who are desperate are likely to latch on to something. But maybe if Mormonism hadn't been there, your father would not have latched on to anything. I think I wrote about a young woman who threw herself in front of a train last summer. I wish she'd have found something to latch onto. if she had, I think it would have been accurate to say that whatever it was saved her life.
This is where it gets tough to talk about it, but I still can't help wonder if a suicide for certain people is (sadly) inevitable. I think people who genuinely want help or can imagine a better future will find it, if they want it badly enough (they may even make a suicidal overture in order to alert people they need help). If they don't, they weren't wired to in the first place.
I don't mean that in a harsh or judgmental way. I just think it's one hard, cold fact of the human experience.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Perfume on my Mind wrote:True. So when you pick up the hammer and drive the nail home, who gets the credit, you or the hammer?
If you started extolling the virtues of the hammer, I would start to wonder about your sanity (or just suspect you really like your hammer more than most people).
It just occurred to me that Home Improvement was a sitcom about abnormal tool worship. The dude had a show evangelizing tools. In fact, he had a show within the show hawking tools.
That show demonstrated the absurdity of tool worship (of course, so does the current President).
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
DoubtingThomas wrote: Where can I find commandments like "Thou shall not be racist" Thou shall not have slaves" "Thou shall not have child brides" "Thou shall not rape" in the scriptures? Help me find the moral knowledge in the scriptures.
Would you like a list? I'm serious. I can list them.
Please. I will convert to Christianity if you can give me a good list.
DoubtingThomas wrote: Where can I find commandments like "Thou shall not be racist" Thou shall not have slaves" "Thou shall not have child brides" "Thou shall not rape" in the scriptures? Help me find the moral knowledge in the scriptures......
....... Please. I will convert to Christianity if you can give me a good list.
Those who do not see these commandments in the commands to love your neighbor as yourself and to do unto others as you would have them do to you do not qualify to be Christian.
