Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

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_huckelberry
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _huckelberry »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
huckelberry wrote:......e. I realize there are people who believe that God is giving the words so they represent the actual inerrant knowledge that God has.I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that the Bible is not that. I believe that the belief in inerrancy of scripture is an error which injures the health of Christianity, It blocks thought, encourages blindness in service of pointless conformity.

It makes sense, but your version of god is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exists. Are you following Pascal's wager?

Doubting Thomas, I am a bit indifferent to Pascals wager. I believe Jesus teaching about human life to be something of great value to us now in this life. I believe worship of God is an expression of gratitude for the worth and beauty of life. I believe worship is agreeing to make the most of the good in life and to overcome or endure the negative.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

subgenius wrote:While Ajax can't make an argument to save a life...I must inquire of you - are you claiming that "drawing a line" is something Jesus did not teach? It seems that you are implying that Christian Love is not deliberate or focused...which seems to contradict information given by scripture...or did He give, say, the Pharisees what they wanted?

Is that the argument you'd present to Jesus? I'm genuinely curious what Ajax18, and now you, would say to Jesus given the cartoon above and subsequent context here:

"When you welcome even a child because of me, you welcome me. And when you welcome me, you welcome the one who sent me."

I think you’re in a tricky position if your belief in Christ is biblically consistent. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that. Additionally I think if you’re comfortable enough with your politics that you feel like you could explain it to Him as if He were standing next to you and not feel like His wrath would be upon you, I’d have to question what it is, exactly, that you believe. I have some thoughts about stoicism and how it relates to some of the themes we’ve been talking about, but I think I need some more time to think it over before posting a thought.

I'll break down the issues because I'd like answers to them.

1) Separating immigrant children from their parents contextualized by, "When you welcome even a child because of me, you welcome me. And when you welcome me, you welcome the one who sent me."

2) Racism and poor immigrants contextualized by - "Judge not lest ye be judged and all that." and the fact that Joseph and Mary were refugees.

3) Please tell me what you'd say to Jesus Christ given your views on race, ethnicity, nationality, or poverty (please address each issue since they're relevant to this thread) and how do you balance that with His words found in the Bible?

And since I'm asking you and Ajax to discuss this topic in good faith I'll answer your questions because I'd be acting in bad faith if I didn't.

are you claiming that "drawing a line" is something Jesus did not teach?

I'm not sure what that means in context to this thread, but I think you're thinking of the money changers at the temple or calling out the pharisees? I mean, I think Jesus was against usury and was driven by wrath to punish people who He felt weren't in line with God's will. You can clarify if you'd like, but I'm fairly certain in context to this thread Jesus wouldn't be happy with the hubris and scorn His disciples or followers have shown His children.

It seems that you are implying that Christian Love is not deliberate or focused...which seems to contradict information given by scripture...or did He give, say, the Pharisees what they wanted?

I'm not totally sure what you mean by this. I'm not dodging the question; I just don't really get what point you're making. If you want to clarify I'll answer.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Jersey Girl wrote:DT. When you're ready to read and try to relate to my entire post then we'll talk. You simply took the intro (that was in response to a different request of yours--which I don't think you replied to) and riffed off it to pose your additional questions.

Yes, there are scriptures that cover suicide and prohibition of child marriage. Didn't you cover the Bible in your Sunday School yearly scripture rotation? Do you think you are well familiar with the Bible and how to locate life applications therein?

I'll be back later to see if you have something more to say and really want to explore the issues you have raised.

Please do because I cannot find the scriptures that cover suicide and prohibition of child marriage.
_ajax18
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _ajax18 »

Additionally I think if you’re comfortable enough with your politics that you feel like you could explain it to Him as if He were standing next to you and not feel like His wrath would be upon you,


First of all we're talking about politics. I believe in a separation of church and state. We're talking about forcibly taking money out of the paychecks of working people to give to who the politicians decide. There's really no decision on the part of the worker/payer involved once socialism is put into practice and becomes communism. How can your contribution count for anything when you've forfeited your right to give what you choose? Socialism thus debases the giver and the taker.

I'm not sure you're really interested in having a good faith discussion about this because you failed to respond to my question above. What do you think people who attend general conference believe. They think Jesus is watching them. They believe in the Book or Mormon and the scripture I referenced above about not letting the beggar's petition be in vain. Yet they pass by lots and lots of beggars on their way into general conference. Do you think Jesus's wrath is kindled against them as well?

1) Separating immigrant children from their parents contextualized by, "When you welcome even a child because of me, you welcome me. And when you welcome me, you welcome the one who sent me."


We separate children from the families of robbers, investment scammers, and those who have committed many different kinds of crimes. We put locks on our doors and our cars. You've acquired enough money that you no longer have to go to work for a living. I don't begrudge you that but how can you tell me that you give to every beggar you meet when you have that much money to spare?

Jesus was Jehovah of the Old Testament. He ordered the extermination of entire cities to make way for his chosen people. I'm sure by today's standards most who throw around the term racism would view Jehovah as a racist as well. He certainly seemed pretty focused on securing a future for the patriarchal fathers and a lot more than he did for the gentiles initially.

But again, I understand the Lord's timetable. I don't view him as a racist and as a gentile I know that myself and even my ancestors already had or would have their turn. You're the one who is going to have to ask Jesus these questions. I don't view Jehovah as a genocidal racist so I doubt these questions will come up between me and Him.

2) Racism and poor immigrants contextualized by - "Judge not lest ye be judged and all that." and the fact that Joseph and Mary were refugees.


I don't remember the owners at the Inn being condemned to Hell for running out of room. Not only that but theses owners were permitted to decide when the building had reached maximum capacity. Joseph and Mary didn't get to decide that.

3) Please tell me what you'd say to Jesus Christ given your views on race, ethnicity, nationality, or poverty (please address each issue since they're relevant to this thread) and how do you balance that with His words found in the Bible?


It would go without saying that my paycheck was mine to decide what charity I should contribute to and not the federal government. I would admit that I fought with all I had to keep that right for myself and my posterity. He already understands this. The only time the topic would come up is if you were present.

I served Latino people for 22 months in Christ's name and done plenty on a personal level for illegal immigrants. I've never regretted any of my service and best of all I made this decision to give of myself of my own free will. I wasn't pressed into service by some government program.

Doc, this whole argument reminds me of the Pharisee in the Bible that questioned Mary Magdalene rubbing expensive oil on Jesus's feet, "Why was this oil not sold and given to the poor? Not that he cared for the poor but in an attempt to trap Him."
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

ajax18 wrote:Doc, this whole argument reminds me of the Pharisee in the Bible that questioned Mary Magdalene rubbing expensive oil on Jesus's feet, "Why was this oil not sold and given to the poor? Not that he cared for the poor but in an attempt to trap Him."

Um. One of the disciples said that. Judas Iscariot. How did Jesus respond and what was his reasoning?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Gunnar
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:Jesus was Jehovah of the Old Testament. He ordered the extermination of entire cities to make way for his chosen people. I'm sure by today's standards most who throw around the term racism would view Jehovah as a racist as well. He certainly seemed pretty focused on securing a future for the patriarchal fathers and a lot more than he did for the gentiles initially.

I don't believe for a minute that Jesus/God/Jehovah ever "...ordered the extermination of entire cities to make way for his chosen people." It is far more likely that the Israelites made up that claim after the fact to justify and salve their consciences for atrocities that they or their ancestors had already committed. What the Israelites did to their contemporaries was no different or inherently more or less righteous when they did it than when other conquerors in ancient history did the same thing to their own rivals. "God made us do it" was not any more likely to be true when the Israelites claimed it than when any other ancient civilizations claimed it.

Nor is there any credibility to any claims (biblical or otherwise) that that the Judeo/Christian God, or any other gods chose any particular group of people or race to be especially favored over all other people.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Gunnar
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:
ajax18 wrote:Doc, this whole argument reminds me of the Pharisee in the Bible that questioned Mary Magdalene rubbing expensive oil on Jesus's feet, "Why was this oil not sold and given to the poor? Not that he cared for the poor but in an attempt to trap Him."

Um. One of the disciples said that. Judas Iscariot. How did Jesus respond and what was his reasoning?

Excellent point! Anyone who claims any familiarity with the New Testament at all should know that it was Judas, one of Christ's own disciples, who made that suggestion, not any of his critics.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_EAllusion
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _EAllusion »

The NYT/Sienna battleground poll looks pretty good for Trump in that the numbers look like an near exact repeat of 2016. The pattern of Biden noticeably outperforming Warren in polls with Sanders in the middle is continuing.

This poll went a little further and was able to provide some decent evidence it's probably because she's a woman and perceived as too far leftwing. Sanders has the latter problem, but not the former. The latter problem is traditionally fixable in a general election, but she can't change her gender.

The other takeaway from that poll is if it is accurate and the national polling is more or less accurate, Trump looks well positioned to win reelection while losing the popular vote by a lot because of a quirk in where his best voting demographics are located. The implication of those polling numbers, if accurate, is he could lose by a legitimate landslide in the popular vote and still win.

That was not at all all the intent of the EC when it was set up. It's the result pf freezing the House's representation numbers even more overweighting small states. It'd be very ugly even in normal circumstances, but in a situation where the person being elected is a criminal authoritarian destroying democracy itself, it's untenable.
_canpakes
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _canpakes »

EAllusion wrote:This poll went a little further and was able to provide some decent evidence it's probably because she's a woman and perceived as too far leftwing.

Not to ignore the other excellent points about the EC, but chances are excellent that Warren’s insistence on doing away with the current medical insurer system will be the thing that kills her. Americans are primarily driven by fear, and the double whammy of perceiving the scary unknowns of a new system coupled with their perception that something ’under their control’ is being taken away from them (‘their choice’ of doctors, hospitals, etc., even if that perception is inaccurate) signals the death knell.

The situation binds Warren further if she has to explain how her proposed replacement system will be financed, because Americans will not do the math on how any increase in their taxes might be more than offset by savings in medical expenses. Additionally, they see themselves as optionally needing medical services if at all (they’ll never need to go the hospital, they rationalize, as they wash bag after bag of pork rinds down with Mountain Dew while lounging prone on the couch each evening watching DWTS, Teen Mom and the Kardashians), yet perceive that they are on the hook for taxes regardless.
_ajax18
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Re: Anyone Watch the Latest Democrat Debate? Anyone care?

Post by _ajax18 »

Um. One of the disciples said that. Judas Iscariot. How did Jesus respond and what was his reasoning?

Yes I misremembered that. If I remember right, Jesus said, the poor will always be with you but not the Son of Man?

I remember President Hinckley saying, "Jesus told us the poor will always be with us," yet we still try to change the situation long term with things like the perpetual education fund. I'm all for these type of programs. Where Doc and I would disagree is when you start funding these programs through government income taxation rather than voluntary donations.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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