John, release your finances

[_Analytics]

A few thoughts on how John could structure his company:

1- A sole proprietorship. With this format, Mormon Stories and John are the same entity. His taxable income would be the money he takes in less business expenses and other deductions.

2- An S-Corporation. With this format, Mormon Stories would be a LLC, and presumably, John would own all the stock. All of the company's profits would "pass through" to John, and he'd be required to pay taxes on it, regardless of whether the profits were actually distributed to him.

3- A C-Corporation. With this, Mormon Stories would have to pay corporate income tax on its profits first, and then it would pay John a dividend. He would then pay taxes on the dividends. Double taxation! This would be a terrible option.

4- A non-profit. With this format, John could be a paid employee with a compensation package that could be incentive based. Of course he has to pay income taxes on the money he pays himself. Unlike with the S-Corp, it has a couple of advantages. First, the non-profit could accumulate some money without anybody needing to pay taxes on it until it is distributed. But there are limits on how much it can accumulate like this. Second, the non-profit can receive tax-deductible donations.

That's my understanding of the landscape. If I were an IRS auditor looking at Mormon Stories, I'd look at a few things. First, is it operating according to its non-profit charter? Second, is it hording money or is it spending it? Third, if John is paying money to himself, is he paying taxes on what he gets paid?

Assuming John pays taxes on what he pays himself, the IRS should be thrilled he is paying himself well--that puts him into a higher tax bracket. The government will get way more money paying one guy $250k than 5 guys $50k. The IRS won't complain about that.

And if the non-profit charter was revoked, it wouldn't change the taxes much--the money would still be going mostly to John and he'd still be paying the same tax rate on it. If that were to happen donations to Mormon Stories would no longer be tax deductible, but is that a big deal? How many donors actually itemize this? Because of that, I doubt the IRS really cares too much.

John: Don't release your finances!!!

[_lostindc]

Jason, outside of what is legally okay with the information you're provided in this thread, are you cool with a double salary jump in a year? Could the foundation recruit better talent to replace John at that level of salary?

In the past several years, I've worked with branding of non-profits and FPs and I would call Dehlin's behavior shady or even greedy. Maybe I am just privy to complaints and issues others had with Open Stories, but whatever. I could give a crap. It's sad how many Mormons/ex/NOMs/etc follow and even pay Dehlin. This shows how limited content creation is within the exmo world. The dude is a goof. He lacks ownership of why things broke down in his cult, but that's pretty typical in the Mormon community. We lack ownership in the results of our lives, but that's a different conversation.

[_Kishkumen]

Jason, outside of what is legally okay with the information you're provided in this thread, are you cool with a double salary jump in a year? Could the foundation recruit better talent to replace John at that level of salary?

In the past several years, I've worked with branding of non-profits and FPs and I would call Dehlin's behavior shady or even greedy. Maybe I am just privy to complaints and issues others had with Open Stories, but whatever. I could give a crap. It's sad how many Mormons/ex/NOMs/etc follow and even pay Dehlin. This shows how limited content creation is within the exmo world. The dude is a goof. He lacks ownership of why things broke down in his cult, but that's pretty typical in the Mormon community. We lack ownership in the results of our lives, but that's a different conversation.

I know this is not addressed to me, lostindc, but I have to ask you whether you are privy to hard information on this or you are just assuming for the sake of argument that John's salary will double and that that jump is from the salary he draws from Open Stories Foundation. What is the shady/greedy behavior to which you refer? Rosebud's accusations? Something you know about personally? Stuff for which there is solid evidence?

I can see that you dislike John, find him incompetent, and do not want others to send Open Stories Foundation/MoSto money, but, I have to say, would you prefer that they send the LDS Church 10% of their income, seeing as you probably do not believe that this tithe is God's money, spent by the leaders God has chosen?

Let's be clear. Caveat emptor. I actually do send John a few bucks every month because I, unlike others, enjoy the long-form podcasts. I am having a ball listening to the stories of ex-Scientologists and ex-JWs. I travel long distances every week and I find the interviews really fascinating, and I do understand and acknowledge John's limitations as an interviewer. And that is where my support for John Dehlin ends. I don't care if JD uses that money to tie one on at a bar. I think he gave me enough value to justify asking for those few shekels.

The rest of it I am not really into at all. Nor am I recommending the rest of it to anyone else. It is not to my taste. I don't like life coaching, meet-ups, seminars, etc. I have spoken a couple of times at Sunstone, but I don't put that in the same category as the rest of this stuff. That said, I understand that I am not everyone, and there are those people who really like the social bonding and touchy-feely recovery business. I don't know that they are being taken advantage of by John, but they could be, I suppose.

What I am dead sure about is that Mormons have been trained to be absolutely vicious in their judgmental behavior toward anyone who presumes to step into the role of influencer. People demand that the influencer be as pure as the driven snow to their highly exacting standard. They can push the prophet out of their life for failing to be a god, but heaven forfend that any podcaster/influencer should not turn out to be more virtuous than Gandhi. (And they damned better be, because Gandhi would fail their test.)

So, I take all of this kvetching, bitching, and moaning about John Dehlin with a huge grain of salt. If you don't like what he does, don't support his stuff. If you think he makes too much money, don't send him yours. I will continue to send him a few bucks monthly because I like the podcasts, and if that few bucks buys him a golden cupholder for his Jaguar SUV, then so be it. I really don't give a crap. At least he never pretended that God told him you had to send him the money so you could get into heaven. Now that's something worth complaining about.

[_Maksutov]

Jason, outside of what is legally okay with the information you're provided in this thread, are you cool with a double salary jump in a year? Could the foundation recruit better talent to replace John at that level of salary?

In the past several years, I've worked with branding of non-profits and FPs and I would call Dehlin's behavior shady or even greedy. Maybe I am just privy to complaints and issues others had with Open Stories, but whatever. I could give a ____. It's sad how many Mormons/ex/NOMs/etc follow and even pay Dehlin. This shows how limited content creation is within the exmo world. The dude is a goof. He lacks ownership of why things broke down in his cult, but that's pretty typical in the Mormon community. We lack ownership in the results of our lives, but that's a different conversation.

Right. "I could give a **** but actually I'm going to go on and post a bunch of accusations without evidence because of some dumbass resentment I have."

Don't like what Dehlin does, do something better. Got evidence of crimes, post it. But I think you're just a lying resentful POS like Rosebud. And no, I've never given Dehlin a dime and haven't listened to his 'cast for years. But I know BS and BSers and you and your Rose "bud" are exactly that. You're doing the work of the SCMC and for all I know you're one of them.

And no, I don't like the obsessive crap over Dan Peterson and have said so repeatedly over the years so don't think about playing that card.

[Guest]

Some facts. As per the filed 990 for 2017 and the 2017 financial statement posted on the Open Stories Foundation site, Dehlin received $109,500:

The CEO’s 2017 salary and bonus was $82,500 and $27,000 respectively.

No details are available yet re: 2018 (the deadline for filing is about two weeks out), but a 11/27/18 Board of Directors statement on the Open Stories Foundation site gives some details:

Beginning in 2017, after a sustained period of strong operating performance and positive cash flows, the Board concluded that the Foundation could sustain higher levels of Executive Director Compensation. As a result, increased compensation was approved in 2017 consistent with the Boards determination of the Executive Directors performance and value to the organization. The growth and strong financial performance of Mormon Stories Podcast, which is hosted by the Executive Director was also a primary factor considered by the Board to warrant increased compensation. Mormon Stories podcast has historically generated the vast majority of the Foundations donations and has subsidized the other Open Stories Foundation sponsored podcasts and activities.

In 2018, the Board changed the Executive Director’s compensation method from a standard salary plus bonus structure to a structure more aligned each major role performed by the Executive Director. Under this new structure, his compensation includes the following components.

A salary for this role as Executive Director (fixed at $75,000).

A fixed fee paid for each event he leads for Open Stories Foundation. This fee is consistent with the fees paid to other professionals who participate in these events. The number of events is limited to those approved by the Board, which provides an effective cap on the event compensation. [at the time of this decision, Open Stories Foundation was doing events, as of this announcement, however, the Open Stories Foundation is no longer doing events]

Variable compensation for hosting Mormon Stories Podcast equal to 75% of any contributions received directly for the Mormon Stories podcast, subject to a maximum compensation amount established by the Board. No compensation is received by the Executive Director for donations made to Open Stories Foundation or podcasts other than Mormon Stories.

A discretionary bonus as determined by the Board based on his performance as Executive Director.

In setting this compensation level, the Board intentionally established caps on event and podcast related compensation to ensure that total compensation didn’t exceed a pre-determined budgeted amount for the year. As a result, Executive Director compensation is expected to be approximately $200,000 in 2018.

So, what we actually know at the moment is that Dehlin’s 2018 base salary is expected to decrease by 9%, and that the Board expects his total compensation to be around $200,000, which would be about an 83% increase over the previous year.

If Rosebud has any FACTS to contribute, she is welcome to add them.

[_Kishkumen]

Wow! What Herculean effort enabled Lemmie to obtain the facts that Rosebud refused to offer, instead sending links to other vague accusations?

I am in awe.

[_fetchface]

But what about ARIZONA!?!? What is Open Stories Foundation hiding in the Grand Canyon State besides those picturesque desert views?

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, outside of what is legally okay with the information you're provided in this thread, are you cool with a double salary jump in a year? Could the foundation recruit better talent to replace John at that level of salary?

In the past several years, I've worked with branding of non-profits and FPs and I would call Dehlin's behavior shady or even greedy. Maybe I am just privy to complaints and issues others had with Open Stories, but whatever. I could give a ____. It's sad how many Mormons/ex/NOMs/etc follow and even pay Dehlin. This shows how limited content creation is within the exmo world. The dude is a goof. He lacks ownership of why things broke down in his cult, but that's pretty typical in the Mormon community. We lack ownership in the results of our lives, but that's a different conversation.

Well of course there are the legal issues and then there are potential ethical issues. Would I object to John jumping from $109k in 2018 salary to $250k for 2019? My answer would be it depends. How successful was he in furthering the mission of Open Stories Foundation? How successful was he in increasing donations to the Open Stories Foundation and by how much did they increase? Certainly it would cause me to ask these questions before I could feel good about such a large increase. So it is not cut and dry. And sure, could Open Stories Foundation find other talent? Maybe.

As for the other stuff you say about John I cannot opine. I have heard snippets of such things for quite some time. I have only once attended a Mormon Stories event and that was at Greg Price's home in Maryland. That was more then 12 years ago. I met John there. I had emailed him some before that as I was going through my own faith transition and found him helpful. So it was nice to meet him. I also wanted to meet Greg Price. It was a fund day and I met a lot of great people some of whom I have stayed in touch with through Facebook. But I had no desire to be start a local Mormon Stories support group nor get substantially involved in something like that. I have even less desire to do so now. Mormonism still plays a large roll in my life but less that it has and in different ways. But I don't want to be part of a personality cult. I have not stayed in touch with John but I do listen to his podcasts when I see one that interests me. And I toss a couple hundred of bucks to the Open Stories Foundation annually. Same with RFM. Same with Sam Harris whose podcasts I enjoy.

If I were in Salt Lake and had some time I might go to lunch with John. But it would be after time with my brothers, a few cousins, a few old friends and so on. And with that list I would not likely have the time.

Hope this makes sense.

[_Jason Bourne]

I know this is not addressed to me, lostindc, but I have to ask you whether you are privy to hard information on this or you are just assuming for the sake of argument that John's salary will double and that that jump is from the salary he draws from Open Stories Foundation. What is the shady/greedy behavior to which you refer? Rosebud's accusations? Something you know about personally? Stuff for which there is solid evidence?

I can see that you dislike John, find him incompetent, and do not want others to send Open Stories Foundation/MoSto money, but, I have to say, would you prefer that they send the LDS Church 10% of their income, seeing as you probably do not believe that this tithe is God's money, spent by the leaders God has chosen?

Let's be clear. Caveat emptor. I actually do send John a few bucks every month because I, unlike others, enjoy the long-form podcasts. I am having a ball listening to the stories of ex-Scientologists and ex-JWs. I travel long distances every week and I find the interviews really fascinating, and I do understand and acknowledge John's limitations as an interviewer. And that is where my support for John Dehlin ends. I don't care if John Dehlin uses that money to tie one on at a bar. I think he gave me enough value to justify asking for those few shekels.

The rest of it I am not really into at all. Nor am I recommending the rest of it to anyone else. It is not to my taste. I don't like life coaching, meet-ups, seminars, etc. I have spoken a couple of times at Sunstone, but I don't put that in the same category as the rest of this stuff. That said, I understand that I am not everyone, and there are those people who really like the social bonding and touchy-feely recovery business. I don't know that they are being taken advantage of by John, but they could be, I suppose.

What I am dead sure about is that Mormons have been trained to be absolutely vicious in their judgmental behavior toward anyone who presumes to step into the role of influencer. People demand that the influencer be as pure as the driven snow to their highly exacting standard. They can push the prophet out of their life for failing to be a god, but heaven forfend that any podcaster/influencer should not turn out to be more virtuous than Gandhi. (And they damned better be, because Gandhi would fail their test.)

So, I take all of this kvetching, bitching, and moaning about John Dehlin with a huge grain of salt. If you don't like what he does, don't support his stuff. If you think he makes too much money, don't send him yours. I will continue to send him a few bucks monthly because I like the podcasts, and if that few bucks buys him a golden cupholder for his Jaguar SUV, then so be it. I really don't give a crap. At least he never pretended that God told him you had to send him the money so you could get into heaven. Now that's something worth complaining about.

Well said!

[_lostindc]

I know this is not addressed to me, lostindc, but I have to ask...

I can't really argue against your points.

I am not caught up in the legalities of his non-profit. I am sure John has protected himself.

I believe (in the Book of Mormon play song voice) that John is not a good person. This is based on trusted sources (some well known in the Mormon world).

I also find his content is a statement about the exmormon community. When Mormons leave, unfortunately the talent goes elsewhere.

I am surprised Mormons are gullible enough to purchase his seminars, fund his travels, misc expenses (a lot of gray), etc. I do get funding his podcast, if you like the interviews then go with it, I thought he did alright but didn't evolve over time. That's not a big deal, just my opinion.

I am especially surprised one would pay John Dehlin for instruction regarding transitioning out of a faith, good grief. Why? The guy lied about his reasons for going back to Church, set up his excommunication with publicity stunts, lied about why he was excommunicated (LGBT is one point), and then shortly after set up faith transition seminars. He was covered in accusations of shutting down well meaning individuals and groups, accused a sexual crap, accused of lack of transparency, slandering well meaning individuals, forcing non-disclosure agreements, creating gray areas for expenses, pushing individuals out that might threaten his role in the non-profit, and other accusations. WTF. I don't recall ever finding these messes with other non-profits. Do you hear this kind of stuff with John Larsen? Nope

My statements are all relative, I understand. It's no big deal. I see a Dehlin thread popup and it's whatever. I should probably stop commenting on Dehlin.