Polygamy

[_mentalgymnast]

Where is there any evidence that Bennett used any women to defame Smith?

Bennett said, "he had seduced six or seven" women in the city of Nauvoo. Who were these women?

Regards,
MG

*bump

[_grindael]

Where is there any evidence that Bennett used any women to defame Smith?

Bennett said, "he had seduced six or seven" women in the city of Nauvoo. Who were these women?

Regards,
MG

This isn't an answer. Where is the evidence of Bennett's coercion of women to defame Smith? Read the testimonies of the 1842 High Council, the names of the women are there.

[_grindael]

Ok, Sorry I had to transcribe this from a copy of the Millennial Star... (I only had transcribed the short excerpts)

This is an article called "Apostacy", which appeared in the August 1, 1842 edition of the Star, and details the Brotherton affair. Both Martha and Elizabeth wrote letters back to England, and it is reported that Martha's letters had an impact and this was basically damage control. Elizabeth wrote her letter on April 20th, and it took weeks to get to England and was finally published in the August Edition of the Star. This is an astounding vilification of Martha Brotherton:

Apostasy.--The spirit of apostasy has been quite prevalent of later, principally among those who have emigrated from England to America. They are first seized with a murmuring and fault-finding spirit towards those who have suffered perils and privations, by sea and land, for them and for the cause of truth. These seek to injure by all manner of evil speaking and railing accusation. Next they find fault with their sea voyage and the provisions an sea stores, as being either too scarce or not suited to their appetite. Next they find fault with the country, because it does not produce furnished houses and paved streets, and all manner of riches and luxuries spontaneously, without their labour or their pains; and, last of all, they find fault with the servants of God, who have spent a dozen or twenty years in the service of the people, and suffered the lost of all things, time and again, for Christ's sake and the gospel's, because they have a house, a home, a farm, a horse and carriage, or suit of clothes, and will not give it to them, or lay it aside to work and build them houses and feed them. These they pronounce the wickedest men in the world, and they write back to this country all manner of evil concerning them. 

Among the most conspicuous of these apostates, we would notice a young female who emigrated from Manchester in September last, [Martha Brotherton] and who, after conducting herself in a manner unworthy the character of one professing godliness at length conceived the plan of gaining friendship and extraordinary notoriety with the world, or rather with the enemies of truth, by striking a blow at the character of some of its worthiest champions. She well knew that this would re received as a sweet morsel by her old friends, the Methodists, and other enemies of the Saints. She accordingly selected president J. Smith, and elder B. Young for her victims, and wrote to England that these men had been trying to seduce her, by making her believe that God had given a revelation that men might have two wives; by these disreputable means she thought to overthrow the Saints here, or at least to bring a storm of persecution on them, and prevent others from joining them; but  in this thing she was completely deceived by Satan. Her proceedings have had no other effect upon the Saints, than to fill them with mingled feelings of pity and contempt towards her, and to make them more diligent and faithful to the cause of God. ,,,

However, we will do her justice to say, that her letters have had some effect upon several of her relatives and three or four persons have left the church, perhaps, partly through the influence of these and other reports from apostates and murmurers; and if any such thing can turn any others from the faith, we shall be very happy to part with them, as 

"We want no cowards in our band, That will their colours fly; 
We call for valiant-hearted men, Who're not afraid to die."

But, for the information of those who may be assailed by those foolish tales about the two wives, we would say that no such principle ever existed among the Latter-day Saints, and never will; this is well known to all who are acquainted with our books and actions, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants; and also all our periodicals are very strict and explicit on that subject, indeed far more so than the Bible. The following is an extract from a letter written by the sister of the female before mentioned, which will enable the Saints to judge of the confidence to be placed in her slanderous statements.
 
Nauvoo, April 20th, 1842

Dear______, We arrived here three weeks ago; I thought I would not write until I had seen the Prophet, and attended the meetings in Nauvoo. I have now been at the meetings three Sabbaths and have had the pleasure of attending the conference which continued for three days and I have had the pleasure of hearing Brother Joseph speak, and I consider that one hour's speech rewarded me for all the afflictions I endured while on the mighty deep. I have no doubt but you have heard that I was sick almost all the passage, but I have reason to thank God that I was afflicted, for in the night season when sleep was taken from me, the Lord manifested himself to me in a manner I cannot express; it might have been that the Lord had not shewn me these things I might have stumbled with the lying reports that are in circulation. I suppose, by this time, you will have heard that my parents and sister have apostatized. I know not what they have written to England, as they would not let me see their letters, but I can prove that my sister has told some of the greatest lies that ever were circulated."

Dear______, these are trying times for us all, but I know this is the work of the living God, and though earth and hell should combine to stop its progress, they cannot prevail I beg of you not to listen to reports, but know for yourself, for I believe it is your privilege. O! how I long to see you and enjoy your society, and unbosom all my care to you. My parents have turned their backs upon me, because I would not leave the Saints, and have told my elder sister (Mary McIlwrick) not to own them until she abandoned "Mormonism"; but with all this she is unmoved, and is still contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints, for she and many other of the English Saints have proved that the statements made by my sister are falsehoods of the basest kind." (The Latter-day Saints Millennial Star, Vol. 3, No. 4, August 1, 1842, 73-74 https://books.google.com/books?id=oKBJA ... &q&f=false)

The affidavit by John McIlwrick (and signed by the other two sisters Elizabeth and Mary) was not made until August 27, 1842.

So Martha gets her patriarchal blessing in February, and simply SNAPS??? She then develops a horrible covetous nature, where she became envious and hateful... how was it described... "because they [Smith & Young] have a house, a home, a farm, a horse and carriage, or suit of clothes, and will not give it to them, or lay it aside to work and build them houses and feed them. These they pronounce the wickedest men in the world, and they write back to this country all manner of evil concerning them. 

Are you freaking kidding me???? This is the best that Parley (editor) could do?

So MG, please explain to us how Bennett put Martha up to all this.

[_Maksutov]

Ok, Sorry I had to transcribe this from a copy of the Millennial Star... (I only had transcribed the short excerpts)

This is an article called "Apostacy", which appeared in the August 1, 1842 edition of the Star, and details the Brotherton affair. Both Martha and Elizabeth wrote letters back to England, and it is reported that Martha's letters had an impact and this was basically damage control. Elizabeth wrote her letter on April 20th, and it took weeks to get to England and was finally published in the August Edition of the Star. This is an astounding vilification of Martha Brotherton:

Apostasy.--The spirit of apostasy has been quite prevalent of later, principally among those who have emigrated from England to America. They are first seized with a murmuring and fault-finding spirit towards those who have suffered perils and privations, by sea and land, for them and for the cause of truth. These seek to injure by all manner of evil speaking and railing accusation. Next they find fault with their sea voyage and the provisions an sea stores, as being either too scarce or not suited to their appetite. Next they find fault with the country, because it does not produce furnished houses and paved streets, and all manner of riches and luxuries spontaneously, without their labour or their pains; and, last of all, they find fault with the servants of God, who have spent a dozen or twenty years in the service of the people, and suffered the lost of all things, time and again, for Christ's sake and the gospel's, because they have a house, a home, a farm, a horse and carriage, or suit of clothes, and will not give it to them, or lay it aside to work and build them houses and feed them. These they pronounce the wickedest men in the world, and they write back to this country all manner of evil concerning them. 

Among the most conspicuous of these apostates, we would notice a young female who emigrated from Manchester in September last, [Martha Brotherton] and who, after conducting herself in a manner unworthy the character of one professing godliness at length conceived the plan of gaining friendship and extraordinary notoriety with the world, or rather with the enemies of truth, by striking a blow at the character of some of its worthiest champions. She well knew that this would re received as a sweet morsel by her old friends, the Methodists, and other enemies of the Saints. She accordingly selected president J. Smith, and elder B. Young for her victims, and wrote to England that these men had been trying to seduce her, by making her believe that God had given a revelation that men might have two wives; by these disreputable means she thought to overthrow the Saints here, or at least to bring a storm of persecution on them, and prevent others from joining them; but  in this thing she was completely deceived by Satan. Her proceedings have had no other effect upon the Saints, than to fill them with mingled feelings of pity and contempt towards her, and to make them more diligent and faithful to the cause of God. ,,,

However, we will do her justice to say, that her letters have had some effect upon several of her relatives and three or four persons have left the church, perhaps, partly through the influence of these and other reports from apostates and murmurers; and if any such thing can turn any others from the faith, we shall be very happy to part with them, as 

"We want no cowards in our band, That will their colours fly; 
We call for valiant-hearted men, Who're not afraid to die."

But, for the information of those who may be assailed by those foolish tales about the two wives, we would say that no such principle ever existed among the Latter-day Saints, and never will; this is well known to all who are acquainted with our books and actions, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants; and also all our periodicals are very strict and explicit on that subject, indeed far more so than the Bible. The following is an extract from a letter written by the sister of the female before mentioned, which will enable the Saints to judge of the confidence to be placed in her slanderous statements.
 
Nauvoo, April 20th, 1842

Dear______, We arrived here three weeks ago; I thought I would not write until I had seen the Prophet, and attended the meetings in Nauvoo. I have now been at the meetings three Sabbaths and have had the pleasure of attending the conference which continued for three days and I have had the pleasure of hearing Brother Joseph speak, and I consider that one hour's speech rewarded me for all the afflictions I endured while on the mighty deep. I have no doubt but you have heard that I was sick almost all the passage, but I have reason to thank God that I was afflicted, for in the night season when sleep was taken from me, the Lord manifested himself to me in a manner I cannot express; it might have been that the Lord had not shewn me these things I might have stumbled with the lying reports that are in circulation. I suppose, by this time, you will have heard that my parents and sister have apostatized. I know not what they have written to England, as they would not let me see their letters, but I can prove that my sister has told some of the greatest lies that ever were circulated."

Dear______, these are trying times for us all, but I know this is the work of the living God, and though earth and hell should combine to stop its progress, they cannot prevail I beg of you not to listen to reports, but know for yourself, for I believe it is your privilege. O! how I long to see you and enjoy your society, and unbosom all my care to you. My parents have turned their backs upon me, because I would not leave the Saints, and have told my elder sister (Mary McIlwrick) not to own them until she abandoned "Mormonism"; but with all this she is unmoved, and is still contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints, for she and many other of the English Saints have proved that the statements made by my sister are falsehoods of the basest kind." (The Latter-day Saints Millennial Star, Vol. 3, No. 4, August 1, 1842, 73-74 https://books.google.com/books?id=oKBJA ... &q&f=false)

The affidavit by John McIlwrick (and signed by the other two sisters Elizabeth and Mary) was not made until August 27, 1842.

So Martha gets her patriarchal blessing in February, and simply SNAPS??? She then develops a horrible covetous nature, where she became envious and hateful... how was it described... "because they [Smith & Young] have a house, a home, a farm, a horse and carriage, or suit of clothes, and will not give it to them, or lay it aside to work and build them houses and feed them. These they pronounce the wickedest men in the world, and they write back to this country all manner of evil concerning them. 

Are you freaking kidding me???? This is the best that Parley (editor) could do?

So MG, please explain to us how Bennett put Martha up to all this.

It all comes back to Joseph. All the worm squirming of the agonized apologists won't let him off the hook. Mormon abuse and exploitation of women is something that apparently the MGs and Haleses are unwilling to see and rise above. And so it continues.

[_grindael]

So folks, who do you believe, Martha or Joseph? I would really like to know.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So folks, who do you believe, Martha or Joseph? I would really like to know.

I think this part says it all:

But, for the information of those who may be assailed by those foolish tales about the two wives, we would say that no such principle ever existed among the Latter-day Saints, and never will; this is well known to all who are acquainted with our books and actions, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants; and also all our periodicals are very strict and explicit on that subject, indeed far more so than the Bible. The following is an extract from a letter written by the sister of the female before mentioned, which will enable the Saints to judge of the confidence to be placed in her slanderous statements.

Mormonism and deceit or obfuscation or perjuring or misleading or dissembling or any other word that covers not being honest with your fellow man have gone hand in hand since day one. It's no wonder someone like MG can come into a thread like this and start lying his little ass off. It's disgusting.

- Doc

[_Maksutov]

Mormonism and deceit or obfuscation or perjuring or misleading or dissembling or any other word that covers not being honest with your fellow man have gone hand in hand since day one. It's no wonder someone like MG can come into a thread like this and start lying his little ass off. It's disgusting.

- Doc

Yep. I'm reminded of Robert Millet and other Mopes' admonition to never answer hard questions; only answer the questions "they should have asked".

https://capro.information/mormon-scholar-rober ... -the-lord/

President Moyle said, “Boyd, whenever a person asks me an antagonistic question, I never answer that question, but rather, I answer the question they should have asked.”

That’s why I group this under Answer the Right Question. For example, and this will lead into the next principle, in just a second. For example, if a person, out of the blue, that I don’t know from Adam, walks up to me and says, “So, you’re a Latter-day Saint?” Uh-huh. “Tell me, uh, you folks believe that man can become like God, huh?” See, how do I respond? This is a total stranger. I don’t know what he knows about the church. It may not be the smartest thing in the world to say, “Yeah, yeah, let me, let me quote the Lorenzo Snow couplet for you, and then I’m going get the teachings of the Prophet, and I’m going read to you the King Follett Discourse.” That may not be our best approach.

It might be a much wiser approach to say, “Well, that’s an interesting question, it is asked frequently, but you know, let me begin this way. In the Spring of 1820 there was a young man named Joseph Smith, Jr., who was concerned about the subject of religion, and wanted to know which church to join.” Dot, dot, dot, dot. What did I just do? I just answered the question he should have asked. Now, what’s the question he should have asked?

How do I know that what you have to say is true? Or, what should I know to investigate your message properly? How shall we begin our study of Mormonism? That would have been the right question. You see? What I’m going to do is answer the question they should have asked.

Now, let me say it another way. The world may not know this, but the issue isn’t Adam-God. The issue isn’t Mountain Meadows Massacre. The issue isn’t plural marriage. The issue facing the religious world today is, was Joseph Smith called of God? And that’s the single most important issue to determine. And they’re only going find that out in one way: by learning a little bit, and praying a lot.

Point number three: and it relates to what we were just talking about. The principle, lets state the principle. We never provide meat when milk will do. We never provide meat when milk will do.

.............

Don't call it dishonesty. Don't call it manipulation. Don't call it evasion. It's all about, Did you get a warm fuzzy when you prayed? And if you didn't, you need more faith or to confess your obvious sins.

[_aussieguy55]

Gospel Tangents has some interesting interviews with historian Dr Foster on polygamy and Joseph Smith.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4clku ... prWuwa5SVA

[_mentalgymnast]

...MG can come into a thread like this and start lying...

CFR

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

So folks, who do you believe, Martha or Joseph? I would really like to know.

I question whether it's an either/or.

https://www.millennialstar.org/saul-and ... e-younger/

http://www.reluctantpolygamist.com/relu ... -brothers/

I know I'm posting a couple of links without any commentary...but I've read them. In a nutshell, we have a very complicated/messy narrative going on during 1841-1842. It's not as simple as saying "Who are you going to believe?"

By the way, these two links are worth reading for those that want to take a deeper dive into the polygamy narrative in its various forms during the Nauvoo years in LDS church history.

Regards,
MG