And then one day...

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Smokey wrote:Res Ipsa makes the point that much of what you believe about Anne Frank’s Diary is faith based, and it’s good to remember that this is a belief system.

It is the Cult of Holocaustism. Observe:

The Devil = Hitler

Devil worshipers = neo-Nazis, fascists, racists, eugenicists, Christians/Trump supporters, etc.

Cursed people = Germans and Whites generally

Blasphemy/heresy = Holocaust denial

Blasphemy/heresy laws = Holocaust denial laws

Pilgrimages to holy places = mass travels to Holocaust concentration camps and other places connected with the Holocaust

Places of worship elsewhere = museums, Yad Vashem, and so on. See also: List of Holocaust memorials and museums.

Holy days = Holocaust Memorial Days

The Blessed Virgin = Anne Frank

Holy scriptures = the Posen speeches, the Wannsee Protocol, the Hossbach Memorandum, Anne Frank's diary, and so on

Relics = Holocaust memorabilia displayed in the places of worship and traded on, for example, Ebay

Icons = Holocaust photographs, holograms of Holocaust survivors, and so on

Morality plays = Holocaust movies and television series

Martyrs = Holocaust victims

Saints = Holocaust survivors

Apostles = notable Holocaust witnesses

Holy Warriors = Nazi hunters, anti-racists, social justice warriors, and so on

The Cross = the gas chamber

Resurrection = creation of Israel

Offerings, penances, and indulgences = payments and privileges to various groups and Israel

Prophets = alarmists alarming of a new a Holocaust if not obeyed such as when lobbying for starting wars on various perceived enemies of Israel

The Jew is over-represented in all places except Arlington Cemetery


Cool story, bro.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Chap wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:The Jew haters want to portray all Jews with as a cartoonish, dirty, hooked-nose, greedy, vermin-faced man who deserved what they got in WWII. But Anne Frank shatters that vicious stereotype. She's just a pretty, young teenager forced into extraordinarily brutal circumstances. I had never read her diary before I bought the Critical Edition. Now I can read her original diary, her revision titled The Secret Annex, and the first published version. I've compared the three versions over many pages, and there are differences. But it's clearly the same story of the same girl. A girl who's discovering boys, gets silly, gets cranky, acts like a brat, is frightened, is excited, and is desperately trying to decide who she is. Just like millions of girls her age. You can feel her hope as the families learn of the Normandy invasion and receive news that the tide has been turned in the war. She expects to be able to come out of hiding practically any day now.

And then the diary just stops. And we know she is sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau and then to Bergen-Belsen, which has become an overcrowded, disease-ridden hell-hole. And then her sister dies. And then she dies. Both of them should have had a chance to live. But life was ripped from them by the Jew Haters.

Anne Frank puts a face to the holocaust.

And that's what Jew haters like Smokey can't stand.


Thanks for doing all the work that went into your posts.

Of course there are plenty of other pictures of Jewish people who were alive and well and living normal useful lives before the Nazi machine swept them up. And then they weren't there any more. But Anne left a diary - which was left like scattered waste paper on the floor of her family's hidden apartment when the police broke in and dragged the family away to what awaited them. Death for her and her sister.

If the Jew haters who seized her family had only known the role her diary would play after their foul world of hate and lies was swept away with the Allied victory, they would have taken the care to pick up its scattered pages and burn it. But unfortunately for Smokey and his pals, they did not.


You're welcome, Chap. It turned out to be a pretty interesting research project. All I knew when I started was that there was a Jewish girl named Anne Frank and she kept a diary while hiding during WWII. It was a great learning experience for me.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Smokey
_Emeritus
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:47 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Smokey »

I had never read her diary...


Well that just about days it all.

You are very welcome. I am happy to send you on that journey and educate you on all the different versions of this fantastic tale.

I have some questions and corrections but I’ll save those for another day. Hats off to you for not trying to censor this discussion and actually reading the source material, even if it was after you stated your opinions.
Dr Shades is Jason Gallentine
_schreech
_Emeritus
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _schreech »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Smokey wrote:Image


Cool story, bro.


I love watching a blind faith, jew hating, racist (((Mormon))) try to equate his blind belief in both christian folklore and the the frontier fairy tales of Joe Smith with the mountains of evidence for the holocaust. Its just such a pathetic, sheltered, Mormon zealot thing to do considering so many of them can't differentiate between belief and "knowledge" or can't see the difference between blind faith and evidence based conclusions. Hate seems to be his only outlet for his mental shortcomings and incel lifestyle.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Chap »

Nope.

The killing of a large part of European Jewry by the Nazis and their collaborators was just something very unpleasant and evil that happened at a certain period in history. Like the huge majority of people aware of that fact, I'd much rather it had not happened.

It's no more a matter of faith than that Ribbentrop and Molotov signed the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in 1939. Indeed without that fact we would have to resort to magic to explain where the people referred to in this plaque on a Paris street went to:

Image

The text says 'In memory of the 112 residents of this building, including 40 young children, who were deported and died in German camps in 1942."

That's number 10, rue des Deux Ponts, in the centre of Paris. Those deportations were apparently part of the the big round-up of Paris Jews on 16/17 July 1942.

Or you could have the plaque at 8 rue Hospitalières-St-Gervais that refers to the '165 Jewish children from this school deported to Germany during the second world war, who were exterminated in the Nazi camps. Do not forget'.

And so on. French people saw all this very obvious stuff happening under their noses. They did not forget, though some would have preferred them to. But you know, all those kids being taken off the rolls of a school and never coming back. All those empty apartments with no-one coming back to claim ownership: kinda hard to ignore.

(And by the way - yet again we see that the worst thing that someone who believes in a religion can say to somebody who asserts that a certain fact is the case on the basis of evidence and logic, is to say to them 'Your assertion of the truth of that fact is no different from my belief in a religion.' Weird, no?)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_canpakes
_Emeritus
Posts: 8541
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:54 am

Re: And then one day...

Post by _canpakes »

Smokey wrote:Res Ipsa makes the point that much of what you believe about Anne Frank’s Diary is faith based, and it’s good to remember that this is a belief system.

Being as that the only counter-belief system you’ve offered up involves unsubstantiated claims without evidence, along with fabricated statements, photoshopped images and unsuccessful attempts at misdirection, then it appears that Res Ipsa wins this round.

Sorry, Smoflake. Removed from your 4chan echo chamber, your own belief system has a hard time standing up to reality.
_canpakes
_Emeritus
Posts: 8541
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:54 am

Re: And then one day...

Post by _canpakes »

Smokey wrote:I have some questions and corrections ...

No, you don’t.


... but I’ll save those for another day.

No, you won’t.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Smokey wrote:Res Ipsa makes the point that much of what you believe about Anne Frank’s Diary is faith based, and it’s good to remember that this is a belief system.

It is the Cult of Holocaustism. Observe:

The Devil = Hitler

Devil worshipers = neo-Nazis, fascists, racists, eugenicists, Christians/Trump supporters, etc.

Cursed people = Germans and Whites generally

Blasphemy/heresy = Holocaust denial

Blasphemy/heresy laws = Holocaust denial laws

Pilgrimages to holy places = mass travels to Holocaust concentration camps and other places connected with the Holocaust

Places of worship elsewhere = museums, Yad Vashem, and so on. See also: List of Holocaust memorials and museums.

Holy days = Holocaust Memorial Days

The Blessed Virgin = Anne Frank

Holy scriptures = the Posen speeches, the Wannsee Protocol, the Hossbach Memorandum, Anne Frank's diary, and so on

Relics = Holocaust memorabilia displayed in the places of worship and traded on, for example, Ebay

Icons = Holocaust photographs, holograms of Holocaust survivors, and so on

Morality plays = Holocaust movies and television series

Martyrs = Holocaust victims

Saints = Holocaust survivors

Apostles = notable Holocaust witnesses

Holy Warriors = Nazi hunters, anti-racists, social justice warriors, and so on

The Cross = the gas chamber

Resurrection = creation of Israel

Offerings, penances, and indulgences = payments and privileges to various groups and Israel

Prophets = alarmists alarming of a new a Holocaust if not obeyed such as when lobbying for starting wars on various perceived enemies of Israel

The Jew is over-represented in all places except Arlington Cemetery


Once again, Smokey flat out lies about what I've posted. He starts out by creating an enormous straw man out of Anne Frank's diary -- insisting that people think about it in ways that most people don't actually think about it. He essentially claims that popular beliefs about the diary are the sole basis for people accepting the reality of the holocaust. He claims, somehow, that if he can debunk the diary, he's debunked the holocaust.

Next, he goes about brutally attacking his own straw man. But he can't even do that without telling lie after lie after lie after lie. Will he ever own up to the fact that he lied about the ball point pen, even going to the point of trying to fake evidence? Nope.

I'm the perfect counterexample to Smokey's straw man. When this discussion started, I knew there was a girl named Anne Frank, that she hid from the Nazis and kept a diary. I assumed she'd died, but had no idea how or when. All of Smokey's straw man claims about what everyone believes about Anne Frank's diary were completely alien to me. When I mentioned to my wife that I had never read Anne Frank's diary, her reaction was: don't bother -- it's not that great a book. Yet neither she nor I were holocaust deniers -- our thinking about the events of the holocaust itself had nothing whatsoever to do with Anne Frank.

Every historical figure of any perceived importance gets mythologized to some degree or other. Think about Otto Frank for a minute. The last time he saw his wife and daughters was on the selection ramp at Auschwitz-Birkenau. He returns to the Netherlands after the war, but they simply never come back. Imagine how that feels. From the reading I've done, I think he tried to do two things with his daughter's papers: fulfill her dream of becoming a published author, and promote her as a symbol of all holocaust victims.

Looking at the Anne's original diary, the revised version she intended to publish, and the first published version based on Otto's combining of the two original manuscripts, I think that fulfilling his daughter's dream was his primary motivation. Promoting her as a universal symbol came later, and was done through the vehicle of a play that was eventually produced. I haven't read the script, and probably never will. But in reading about it, I can see how it mythologized her into more of a universal symbol. In my opinion, the cost of doing that was watering down meaningful parts of her story. It deemphasized her Jewishness, and it overemphasized her faith in humanity. And, to me, that blunts what makes her story so tragic: she was an ordinary teenager with all of the faults and warts that human teenagers have who did not in any way, shape or form deserve what the Nazi's did to her.

That's all interesting, but none of it matters. Because I can read her original diary. I can read how she wanted to take that material and transform it from a private diary into a public diary that told her story. And I can read how her father tried to combine those two to tell her story and convince a publisher to publish it. And there is nothing in the differences in details of those versions that changes the story of what happened to a teenager named Anne Frank.

One additional note: Smokey's post here is a classic example of projection. He is a religious cultist. So he thinks everyone else thinks in terms of cult-like, religious symbology. His attempt to analogize his own cultic symbology to people's evidence-based beliefs about the holocaust just shows how screwed up his own thought processes are.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Smokey wrote:
I had never read her diary...


Well that just about days it all.

You are very welcome. I am happy to send you on that journey and educate you on all the different versions of this fantastic tale.

I have some questions and corrections but I’ll save those for another day. Hats off to you for not trying to censor this discussion and actually reading the source material, even if it was after you stated your opinions.


Yes, Smokey, it was very educating. Including an education of the degree of your dishonesty, lying, and outright fraud. I'll wager you've never tried to educate yourself about the diary or read any of the source material. Hell, all it took me was some time, twelve bucks, and a genuine desire to understand the facts. In contrast, all you've done promote lies that were disproven 40 years ago. It's you, not me, who stated opinions without doing any research.

I know what you've got, and it's nothin': No questions, no corrections, no moral compass, no backbone. After being confronted with the actual evidence, you can't even bring yourself to say "I was wrong about the ballpoint pen." You try to present as a knowledgable bully-boy, but you're just an uninformed, dishonest, coward. And everyone who reads this thread will know it.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: And then one day...

Post by _Chap »

Res Ipsa wrote:You try to present as a knowledgable bully-boy, but you're just an uninformed, dishonest, coward. And everyone who reads this thread will know it.


Yup. That's the problem with today's Nazis. At least the old sort was fairly clever at being Nazis (well, it was rather easier when people had not yet seen where Nazism was leading them ...).

But this lot we have today? If Dr Goebbels had a grave, he would be turning in it. They're just not very good at what they try to do.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Post Reply