The coronavirus spread updated in real time

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Res Ipsa »

EAllusion wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html

This story seems “drag them from their offices” level bad. I guess hope it isn’t true?


I tried to read the actual story, but I hit a paywall. But I read the authors TL/DR on Twitter, as well as Trevor and the Seattle Flu Study’s response to the article. There are good reasons why letting someone home brew a test kit that hasn’t been vetted diagnose people for a disease without their informed consent is a bad idea. This looks terrible because the test kit successfully caught a patient. But if it had ended up with a high rate of false positives or false negatives, the newspaper story would be very different.

Trevor and the Seattle flu study are working with both agencies to make use of their data for surveillance, and both describe the relationship as positive. But here’s the problem we’re wrestling with right now: every potential case of flu right now is a potential case of COVID-19. Doctors offices and medical clinics aren’t set up to safely test for COVID. So integrating testing into our existing flu surveillance networks is not a simple problem. The CDC had a plan for that, that appears to have been scrapped once Pence’s task force started pushing “test kits for all” as if it was a magic wand.

Where people are seeing nefarious motives, I’m seeing a cascade of institutional breakdown under stress. It’s remarkably similar to Crichton’s Jurassic Park. You have a known risk, virus getting into the general population, and you have a number of systems set up to stop that. But the systems are complex and interrelated, which means that, it is likely that unforeseen circumstances will result in those systems having the opposite of the intended effect.

Based on what I’ve read obsessively over the past few weeks, there is a fair amount of unwarranted hysteria over the issue of testing in the media and among the US population. Since the beginning, WHO has defined “suspect persons” i.e., individuals who should be investigated, including testing. The CDC’s term for the same folks is Persons Under Investigation. The CDC has currently abandoned any attempt to define PUI, punting to “your doctor.” What is the current WHO definition of suspect case? It’s the same definition the CDC was using before it punted: investigate (test) people who either show symptoms and have traveled in countries experiencing an outbreak or have had close contact with a case informed by testing. Or, have symptoms bad enough to require hospitalization and have had other causes ruled out. WHO does not recommend testing folks with mild symptoms on an patient by patient basis. We should still be testing these suspect cases. We are testing the hospitalized cases. But when the CDC punted, it left doctors no guidance on which patients with mild symptoms should be tested. It also left doctors and clinics with no guidance on how doctors and clinics can create a safe environment for testing patients with mild symptoms that minimizes the risk of infecting health care workers and doctors. On the ground here, it was chaos.

I’ve gotta run. I need to do my regular weekly shopping. The governor implemented our first mandatory closures, WHO said the P word, and it’s looking increasingly like our school district will move to online instruction next week. I want to get my regular shopping done before the next wave of panic buying.

But some numbers and questions to chew on. South Korea, with all of its widespread testing, has tested .4% of its population. It’s population density is 40x that off the US. What percentage of its identified cases has it found through drive in clinics as opposed to contact tracing members of the religious sect who spread the disease? What were the pier capital stocks of PPE in South Korea at the start of the outbreak compared to the US. What is the effect of using PPE for testing on the availability of PPE to protect medical personnel who treat hospitalized patients? What is South Korea doing with the data from mass testing and what is the evidence that it is actually saving lives?

Stay healthy and create slack.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_EAllusion
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _EAllusion »

Clear your cookies Rep. The story on one level is about the quixotic efforts of the Seattle flu project to be adapted into a corona testing system. On another level, the bad one, it is about how bureaucratic rules, adopted for sensible reasons, led to bureaucrats delaying a sensible response by unreasonably setting up barriers that they did not take down fast enough. It led to a major screw up.

Your rhetorical food for thought seems to be asking, “how important is testing anyway?” I think the answer there is very if only to inform resource management.

In other news, apparently the Trump admin is doing this:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/ ... ssion=true
_Lemmie
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Lemmie »

Both my son’s Universities and mine have now moved to online teaching, for the time being. The three cancelled classes for three days, two days, and 5 days, in preparation. Although the school that cancelled 5 days did so for the week immediately after Spring Break, I assume acknowledging that there was literally zero chance that at least one spring break vacationer out of >8k wouldn’t bring it back with them.

That’s universities in three different states, here on the East coast. It’s a proactive move- none of the universities have confirmed cases, but each of the three are relatively close to an area containing a super spreader case, and in my opinion the right move.

But sigh. This will be difficult.

ETA: the D1 schools of the three have either cancelled sports events, or they will be held with only coaches, players, and essential staff.

(Edited to update some numbers)
_Res Ipsa
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Res Ipsa »

EAllusion wrote:Clear your cookies Rep. The story on one level is about the quixotic efforts of the Seattle flu project to be adapted into a corona testing system. On another level, the bad one, it is about how bureaucratic rules, adopted for sensible reasons, led to bureaucrats delaying a sensible response by unreasonably setting up barriers that they did not take down fast enough. It led to a major screw up.

Your rhetorical food for thought seems to be asking, “how important is testing anyway?” I think the answer there is very if only to inform resource management.

In other news, apparently the Trump admin is doing this:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/ ... ssion=true


Sorry I don’t have time to distill a ton of information into a few pithy sentences. But your extrapolation of my bottom line is wrong. I’m not questioning the value of testing. I’m questioning the value of mass testing with this type of test. What I read from disease experts and epidemiologists is that testing for diagnosis of individual patients should be done when there is medical benefit in doing so. Surveillance testing should also be done, through an organized system of data collection so we can make good use of the data. We have flu surveillance systems that COVID testing can be integrated into. But the PCR test is ill suited for that because taking the test sample induced the mechanism that spreads the disease. (Effective swabbing makes one cough and or sneeze. But mass testing anyone who demands a test isn’t good surveillance testing because we have clue how representative that kind of self selected sample is.

I read late last night that China and Singapore have started to deploy a serum antibody test. That’s the tool we need to add COVID surveillance to our existing flu surveillance network. A blood test doesn’t induce coughing. The existing flu surveillance tests are blood tests.

Just as importantly, a negative PCR test only tells you whether you have enough virus on board today for the test to detect. It can’t tell you if you’ve had the disease. A Sun antibody test tells the patient and the health surveillance system whether they’ve had the disease.

TL/DR Testing is not cost less. We have to allocate the resources we have in a little to no evidence that testing every American with the test we have today is a smart use of resources.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Okay so here's a deal. I'm only writing this to let off a little steam and maybe someone else is wondering what to do.

So I have to go on base to pick up an RX and no doubt stand in line with folks hacking up a lung. So...I got an idea about something. Another RX I take daily and I wanted to see if I could get the refill pushed in earlier than normal.

Talked to base. Talked to the prescriber and YES they can do that. Not only that, they are giving me 2 refills in advance instead of 1 so I don't have to needlessly stand in line with a bunch of sick folks.

The second RX has already been electronically sent in. Normally, it'd take probably 3 days for it to be actually refilled because that's how the military functions or fails to function. When I go in there I'm going to see how willing the military pharmacy is to buck the system and give it to me on the spot along with the one I called in.

Hope that makes sense. I'm really trying to test the systems to see how cooperative they are going to be with the guidelines we are seeing that tell us to see if our doctors will give us a bit of an extra supply of regularly taken meds so we can continue to practice social distancing.

Will report back!

p.s. Next go round is switching whatever I need to mail order.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jersey Girl wrote:The second RX has already been electronically sent in. Normally, it'd take probably 3 days for it to be actually refilled because that's how the military functions or fails to function.


Do you guys use 'myhealthevet'?

https://www.myhealth.va.gov/mhv-portal-web/home

I have some friends that use it to have their medications shipped to them, schedule appts, communicate with their healthcare providers, etc.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Res Ipsa »

After action report: nearby chain grocery store (not Costco, etc.). Out of stock: anti-bacterial soap, alcohol based wipes.

Items with purchase limits: ramen noodles, water, toilet paper, paper towels, facial tissues, soap, household cleaning products. Limit for each was 5 packages, so not very onerous. Not crowded and shoppers were in a good mood. Three a case of Corona in my cart, which generated lots of smiles and several conversations. Of those I talked to, all seemed to be taking the situation very seriously without panicking. Had a long conversation with a school bus driver. She is conservative and is by no means a fan of Governor Inslee. But she watched his news conference this morning, and she was impressed and had confidence that he is doing a good job on this.

Picked up prescriptions last night. People, on their own, were standing much further apart in line.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl wrote:Okay so here's a deal. I'm only writing this to let off a little steam and maybe someone else is wondering what to do.

So I have to go on base to pick up an RX and no doubt stand in line with folks hacking up a lung. So...I got an idea about something. Another RX I take daily and I wanted to see if I could get the refill pushed in earlier than normal.

Talked to base. Talked to the prescriber and YES they can do that. Not only that, they are giving me 2 refills in advance instead of 1 so I don't have to needlessly stand in line with a bunch of sick folks.

The second RX has already been electronically sent in. Normally, it'd take probably 3 days for it to be actually refilled because that's how the military functions or fails to function. When I go in there I'm going to see how willing the military pharmacy is to buck the system and give it to me on the spot along with the one I called in.

Hope that makes sense. I'm really trying to test the systems to see how cooperative they are going to be with the guidelines we are seeing that tell us to see if our doctors will give us a bit of an extra supply of regularly taken meds so we can continue to practice social distancing.

Will report back!

p.s. Next go round is switching whatever I need to mail order.



Status: currently in hell. Dealing with it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Microrant: it’s taking a damned hour to get this done. Never say die!
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The coronavirus spread updated in real time

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl wrote:Microrant: it’s taking a damned hour to get this done. Never say die!


Two clicks away from getting out of here with the goods. Three civil servants staring at the computer screen in one of the only 2 pick up windows like they’re watching a damned moon landing in progress.
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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