Alexander Vindman: Coming forward ended my career. I still believe doing what?????s right matters.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Shades is awesome. If you make a compelling argument he comes around. For example, he changed his stance on the 9/11 conspiracy theory that the towers were demo’d. I don’t think I've ever seen anyone on the Interwebz or in real life who held a conspiracy theory as factual be convinced otherwise. It was remarkable to see Shades evaluate the information and change his mind.

Not that I’m equating Shades with the commenters on military.com, but it’s helpful to see what they’re posting to get a sense of the average person’s capacity to support someone like LTC Vindman. Check it:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... -the-army/

Hoo boy.

- Doc

[_moksha]

Tell us about your military experience.

Fought valiantly in the Pelican Uprising. That is how I know the Colonel Vindman had the right of it. Don't let those boot camp nightmares cloud your reasoning. Fresh wholesome milk and Oreos can help.


“LTC Vindman’s patriotism has cost him his career,” Pressman wrote. “Today our country loses a devoted soldier, but it is incumbent upon all of us to ensure it does not lose the values he represents.”
-- Military Times

[_Temp. Admin.]

(Dr. Shades here, posting under our "Temp. Admin." account.)

Let me backtrack a little, because I think some perspective is needed:

I'm going to take that as a 'no." And that basic training still regularly haunts your dreams.

Apparently you and Chap have different interpretations of what "haunts your dreams" mean than I do. It looks like you two mistakenly believe that I have PTSD-driven night terrors and wake up screaming and drenched in sweat. This is not the case. Every two or three months I have a dream that I stupidly re-enlisted into the Marine Corps and am now back in Basic Training with one or more of my same drill instructors. I once again have the same feeling of being utterly trapped, with no ability to leave or make my own decisions, for yet another three months' worth of my life. I wake up and am incredibly thankful that it was just a dream and that I'm back in nearly full control of my daily comings-and-goings.

But guess what? I also have regular dreams of being back in college and forgetting when finals are scheduled. It's always the same scenario: I've neglected to either study or attend one class or another, and then I realize that I don't know when the final is scheduled and perhaps it's already come and gone, and I desperately run around trying to find out. So yeah, college haunts my dreams, too--does that mean my opinion of all things college-related is to be utterly dismissed as well, just like my opinion of all things military-related is to be dismissed?

I am frankly amazed by the discussion that began with the intervention by Temp Admin, including insults to the courage of a wounded combat veteran and the statement that the person doing the insulting still has dreams about their basic military training.

You appear to be under the false impression that, in the military, "basic" equals "easy." This is not the case. Although basic training in the Army, Navy, and Air Force aren't very difficult, in the Marine Corps it's called "Boot Camp" and is the toughest training an enlisted Marine will receive--on purpose. They purposefully front-end the hardest part of your career (aside from actual combat itself) first; they don't build you up to it little by little as the word "basic" implies to a civilian.

Tell us about your military experience.

Umm ... no. A pacifist contemplative nun in a cloister since the age of 16 would still perfectly qualified to comment on your postings.

Okay, let me see if I have this straight: A person who has actually been in the military and seen how much better the quality of life a field grade officer is vs. what the quality of life of a junior enlisted person is, and how much better the conditions in the Army vs. the conditions in the Marine Corps are, is not qualified to comment on the stated motives of Alexander Vindman, but you, a person who has never been in the military and only knows about it what he has seen in the movies--the equivalent of "a pacifist contemplative nun in a cloister since the age of 16"--is, quite magically, somehow "perfectly qualified to comment on my postings."

I'm thinking that there's a word for that, . . . can you remind me what it is?

At some level I suppose I should accept responsibility for where the thread has gone.

I'm guessing it's a thread about me now, right?

I'm certainly, intentionally antagonizing Shades.

First, what is your motive for doing that? Second, in what way does that facilitate a quality conversation?

It struck me as a dopey, poorly informed comment made by someone who lacked perspective.

"Someone who lacked perspective?" Please tell us about your military experience. Thanks in advance.

I think that all but the ill-intentioned or obsessive participants on this board think of Shades as a nice tolerant person to whom we all owe a lot. And I expect that is the way things will continue to be.

Rightly or wrongly?

Shades is certainly no snowflake, but neither is Col. Vindman. Calling someone with his background that is beyond the pale, in my opinion.

Maybe he isn't, but his treatise by itself--sans the pertinent information that he unfathomably neglected to include--sure made him come across that way.

Besides, the link that DoctorCamNC4Me gave us includes a LOT of very useful perspectives in the comments section from other military members who also have less-than-glowing reviews of Lt. Col Vindman's motives. Chap, since you're all about doing exhaustive preliminary research on every topic on which you opine, certainly you've read everything at this link. What do the three of you think of these other takes, many of which are much harsher than mine? Once again (and be sure to click on every instance of "Load X more comments" and "Show X more replies in this thread"):

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, who testified against Trump, announces retirement from the Army

Shades is awesome. If you make a compelling argument he comes around. For example, he changed his stance on the 9/11 conspiracy theory that the towers were demo’d. I don’t think I've ever seen anyone on the Interwebz or in real life who held a conspiracy theory as factual be convinced otherwise. It was remarkable to see Shades evaluate the information and change his mind.

Aww, thank you for that, DoctorCamNC4Me. I appreciate your kind words. :-)

[Guest]

dup.

[_honorentheos]

It struck me as a dopey, poorly informed comment made by someone who lacked perspective.

"Someone who lacked perspective?" Please tell us about your military experience. Thanks in advance.

The most relevant was being assigned to a JOTF S4 where I was an E-5 at the time, the lowest ranking person in the room regularly, working for a Major, with my job including providing daily reporting to the Colonel's office. I got to be on friendly terms with the Col. where we'd shoot the crap somewhat regularly while working late. He was a good man, and I liked being in his command. But it was a strange environment unlike anything I ever experienced in normal company-level units. I can't say I hated it or loved it, it had good and bad. But it was not a work environment I would seek out again. It was through this experience I was exposed to the highly competitive promotion process for officers that gives context to his decision. The tension between some officers over promotions was palpable, and the need to hit career milestones in stride was so critical it became part of the political landscape of the job I had to negotiate.

The idea he was experiencing basic training-like bullying seemed ... well, to be lacking perspective.

Besides, the link that DoctorCamNC4Me gave us includes a LOT of very useful perspectives in the comments section from other military members who also have less-than-glowing reviews of Lt. Col Vindman's motives.

While they are typical, I don't know that they are useful. I mean what comment section for any publication ever rises to the level of useful? They're always troll farms. Facebook is one of the limited ways I keep in touch with past Army associates and friends. The Army attracts a diverse group, but it certain skews right and very loyal. You don't get a lot of nuanced commentary from former enlisted dudes. If the Military Times comment section reads like a fundamentalist preppers website I'm not surprised.

[_Temp. Admin.]

The idea he was experiencing basic training-like bullying seemed ... well, to be lacking perspective.

I never said he was experiencing basic training-like bullying; this whole basic training derailment was brought up by you, not me. I said that if he had endured a career as an enlisted Marine, then a little bit of so-called "bullying"--in the form of Trump and his allies merely blocking his hopes for advancement, of all things, especially when Trump and his allies are soon to be gone anyway--wouldn't have intimidated him at all.

[_honorentheos]

The idea he was experiencing basic training-like bullying seemed ... well, to be lacking perspective.

I never said he was experiencing basic training-like bullying; this whole basic training derailment was brought up by you, not me. I said that if he had endured a career as an enlisted Marine, then a little bit of so-called "bullying"--in the form of Trump and his allies merely blocking his hopes for advancement, of all things, especially when Trump and his allies are soon to be gone anyway--wouldn't have intimidated him at all.

Against, lack of perspective. You aren't accurately assessing his situation while using a glorified form of your own to dismiss it. It's dumb. Thinking it's about intimidation still is a continuation of that stupidity. Regardless, think what you want about it of course.

[_Temp. Admin.]

Against, lack of perspective. You aren't accurately assessing his situation while using a glorified form of your own to dismiss it. It's dumb. Thinking it's about intimidation still is a continuation of that stupidity.

Hmm, let's see who else stupidly thinks it's about intimidation:

"I made the difficult decision to retire because a campaign of bullying, intimidation and retaliation by President Trump and his allies forever limited the progression of my military career."

--Alexander Vindman

Regardless, think what you want about it of course.

Alexander Vindman and I both thank you.

[_honorentheos]

Against, lack of perspective. You aren't accurately assessing his situation while using a glorified form of your own to dismiss it. It's dumb. Thinking it's about intimidation still is a continuation of that stupidity.

Hmm, let's see who else stupidly thinks it's about intimidation:

"I made the difficult decision to retire because a campaign of bullying, intimidation and retaliation by President Trump and his allies forever limited the progression of my military career."

--Alexander Vindman

Regardless, think what you want about it of course.

Alexander Vindman and I both thank you.

So when he says the result, "forever limited the progression of (his) military career" you read the emphasis on his being "picked on", hence calling him a snowflake? But had you been more aware of how barriers now in his eligibility for promotion aren't limited to Trump being in office but can effectively throw him off the promotion rails and force him out? And with that knowledge you might then have focused on the latter half of the statement? And that would be rightly called, "lacking perspective"?

The reality is, when I read your comment it aligned quite closely with some of the Facebook friends from my military days who are of a type. I'm not sure the best way to put that type into words. But one characteristic they share is being someone who, years after enlisting, enjoyed the authority of telling a civilian about going through Basic like it was a war story. They are also the people on my friends list you wouldn't be able to miss their prior service if you tried though they got out years ago. So I used it in my response to your calling LTC Vindman a snowflake. I didn't think you'd take it as bait. It was intended as a suggestion you were being a bit...well, choose what you think the best word is for that. I'd call it embarrassing but that doesn't seem to be the case with folks of that type.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

The problem is LTC Vindman literally did the job he was hired to do, and he was punished for it by the very person that should’ve given him a pat on the back for it (assuming the President was really innocent he should’ve been grateful for the work done by everyone safeguarding our democracy).

- Doc