Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

[Themis]

The witnesses are totally different, with many of them walking back their testimonies. Here's the FAIR Wiki on the matter.

So you're wrong drumdude.

Stanges attempts to follow Joseph's example were certainly not as good. Joseph was clearly more talented. Witnesses from both groups were known to walked back their testimonies to some degree. Not that the testimonies you find in the front of the Book of Mormon were created or signed by any of them. When it comes to props though, the kinder-hook plates are the clear winner. They did a good enough job to show them to the world. No need to hide them or control how and when they could be seen or partially seen. If you want to show the world you have real ancient plates, you don't just show it to a few close followers who have no way to know what they are looking at or the how they got to look at them. It does less then how the kinder-hook plates were available to all to see and handle, yet we all agree they were fake ancient plates.

[drumdude]

Isn't it amazing how easily the plates were debunked once so many people could actually see them? Every single "Witness" to Joseph's plates was either a friend, family member, of financial backer.

You and DCP have so much faith, Sledge. So much credulity. You would make great witnesses.

Admit you’re wrong and let’s move on to the next tired, worn-out, long debunked antiMormon argument.

I'll ask you this then, do you think any latter day saints believe Mormonism because there are witnesses, and wouldn't take Joseph's word alone?

How many people are going to join Mormonism after watching Witnesses (2021)?

The witnesses don't convince anyone who isn't already willing to believe that native Americans are Jewish, that millions of Hebrew people had giant battles in Mezoamerica, that Joseph Smith saw Jesus and God the Father in the flesh, ect ect ect.

If the plan of salvation had as one if its goals proof of these ridiculous claims, the golden plates would be in a LDS museum open to examination and able to convince more than a few million people across the globe to join the religion. If that level of criticism was done, we would get exactly the same result Strang did and we would know exactly how Joseph produced the plates.

You think DCP responding to all of these bricks in the wall of Mormon criticism defeats the wall. Yet the proof that the wall remains is that the Mormon church for nearly 200 years has never become anything more than an oddity in the larger Christian and religious world. The CES letter allows former Mormons to see their religion how the rest of the world sees it - as a giant collection of absurdities and impossibilities that require suspension of logic and critical thinking to be a part of.

[drumdude]

The witnesses are totally different, with many of them walking back their testimonies. Here's the FAIR Wiki on the matter.

So you're wrong drumdude.

Stanges attempts to follow Joseph's example were certainly not as good. Joseph was clearly more talented. Witnesses from both groups were known to walked back their testimonies to some degree. Not that the testimonies you find in the front of the Book of Mormon were created or signed by any of them. When it comes to props though, the kinder-hook plates are the clear winner. They did a good enough job to show them to the world. No need to hide them or control how and when they could be seen or partially seen. If you want to show the world you have real ancient plates, you don't just show it to a few close followers who have no way to know what they are looking at or the how they got to look at them. It does less then how the kinder-hook plates were available to all to see and handle, yet we all agree they were fake ancient plates.

Yep. The kinder-hook plates and the Egyptian Charactors document are the two giant thorns in LDS apologists side. They will never go away, and they can never be plucked out.

[Sledge]

Stanges attempts to follow Joseph's example were certainly not as good. Joseph was clearly more talented. Witnesses from both groups were known to walked back their testimonies to some degree. Not that the testimonies you find in the front of the Book of Mormon were created or signed by any of them. When it comes to props though, the kinder-hook plates are the clear winner. They did a good enough job to show them to the world. No need to hide them or control how and when they could be seen or partially seen. If you want to show the world you have real ancient plates, you don't just show it to a few close followers who have no way to know what they are looking at or the how they got to look at them. It does less then how the kinder-hook plates were available to all to see and handle, yet we all agree they were fake ancient plates.

HUGE pivot!

[Lem]

Stanges attempts to follow Joseph's example were certainly not as good. Joseph was clearly more talented. Witnesses from both groups were known to walked back their testimonies to some degree. Not that the testimonies you find in the front of the Book of Mormon were created or signed by any of them. When it comes to props though, the kinder-hook plates are the clear winner. They did a good enough job to show them to the world. No need to hide them or control how and when they could be seen or partially seen. If you want to show the world you have real ancient plates, you don't just show it to a few close followers who have no way to know what they are looking at or the how they got to look at them. It does less then how the kinder-hook plates were available to all to see and handle, yet we all agree they were fake ancient plates.

Yep. The kinder-hook plates and the Egyptian Charactors document are the two giant thorns in LDS apologists side. They will never go away, and they can never be plucked out.

That’s what has always stood out to me. When there actually are things like plates and papyri to view, they are clearly not what they were represented to be by Smith. But people are supposed to just take the “witness” stories at face value that the missing golden plates really were real? It strains credulity.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Sledge shifts between being a kvetching troll and a thick-as-pig-crap morgbot who doesn’t actually read anything. It’s as if Xanax and MG were merged in a transporter accident, a sort of dullard ‘Tuvix’ that lacks both the intellectual prowess and affability of Voyager’s sad accident.



- Doc

[Gadianton]

Joseph Smith used a hat to hide the fact that there were no words appearing on the stone.

In case that hasn't been pointed out in a while.

[Lem]

Joseph Smith used a hat to hide the fact that there were no words appearing on the stone.

In case that hasn't been pointed out in a while.

I thought it was because his I-stone didn’t have glare-guard, but your reason does sound slightly more probable. I’ll give priors for yours of 99.999999% and for mine, epsilon (defined as so close to zero as to be indistinguishable, but technically not zero).

I am constrained by my professional oaths to only use probabilities between but not equal to 0 and 1. Even if I really want to.

[Shulem]

Joseph Smith used a hat to hide the fact that there were no words appearing on the stone.

In case that hasn't been pointed out in a while.

The strange act was good enough to keep Cowdery in check. Cowdery was intrigued and spellbound by Smith's ability to con his victims into thinking he was performing some kind of miraculous and mysterious act. The head in the hat was quite a trick and simply a means to the end. Cowdery waited it out and was willing to see it through to the end. He was in Smith's employ and became part of a scheme in which fame and even wealth could result.

But there were no real gold plates. There was no writing magically appearing on a seer stone. ALL of that is imagination and Smith's lies which he managed to con and dupe people into believing. Even the locals who had heard of gold plates were interested and perked up. It was all part of the trick to get people interested in Smith's novel he wanted to write with the hopes of becoming famous and rich.

[drumdude]

The plates were Gold because Smith had to invent a reason to tell everyone why they had to remain hidden.

Joe's Mom said:

Now said he[,] Father and Mother the angel of the Lord says that we must be careful not to proclaim these things or to mention them abroad For we do not any of us know the wickedness of the world which is so sinful that when we get the plates they will want to kill us for the sake of the gold if they know we had <have> them...by sunset [we] were ready to be seated and give our atten undivided attention to Josephs recitals...From this time forth Joseph continued to receive instructions from time to time and every evening we gathered our children togather [together]...In the course of our evening conversations Joseph would give us some of the most ammusing [amusing] recitals which could be immagined [imagined]. he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress their man[n]er of traveling the animals which they rode The cities that were built by them the structure of their buildings with every particular of their mode of warfare their religious worship as particularly as though he had spent his life with them...The angel informed him at one time that he might make an effort to obtain the plates <on> the <22nd of the> ensueing september....

It's a shame God didn't make the plates out of brass, so that the wicked evil men of the world wouldn't put the Smith family in such danger.

But then the plates weren't even necessary because he had the stone. And on and on the ridiculous 19th century legacy of Joe's lies runs...