Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

[Sledge]

It's a shame God didn't make the plates out of brass, so that the wicked evil men of the world wouldn't put the Smith family in such danger.

But then the plates weren't even necessary because he had the stone. And on and on the ridiculous 19th century legacy of Joe's lies runs...

It's a shame god didn't just snap their fingers and make everyone a Mormon from day 1.

[drumdude]

It's a shame God didn't make the plates out of brass, so that the wicked evil men of the world wouldn't put the Smith family in such danger.

But then the plates weren't even necessary because he had the stone. And on and on the ridiculous 19th century legacy of Joe's lies runs...

It's a shame god didn't just snap their fingers and make everyone a Mormon from day 1.

Mormon God can't because he's bound by the laws of nature. He's not really a God at all.

[Themis]

Stanges attempts to follow Joseph's example were certainly not as good. Joseph was clearly more talented. Witnesses from both groups were known to walked back their testimonies to some degree. Not that the testimonies you find in the front of the Book of Mormon were created or signed by any of them. When it comes to props though, the kinder-hook plates are the clear winner. They did a good enough job to show them to the world. No need to hide them or control how and when they could be seen or partially seen. If you want to show the world you have real ancient plates, you don't just show it to a few close followers who have no way to know what they are looking at or the how they got to look at them. It does less then how the kinder-hook plates were available to all to see and handle, yet we all agree they were fake ancient plates.

HUGE pivot!

In what way? I don't spend much time these days with people like you. You demonstrate a closed mind. An open mind is willing to discuss and evaluate evidence presented. An open mind asks questions, even if at the end they may not agree.

[Themis]

Sledge shifts between being a kvetching troll and a thick-as-pig-crap morgbot who doesn’t actually read anything.

It's obvious Sledge has done only superficial reading of these issues, and only from friendly sources. As a result sledge cannot have real discussion with anyone who asks questions.

[Sledge]

In what way? I don't spend much time these days with people like you. You demonstrate a closed mind. An open mind is willing to discuss and evaluate evidence presented. An open mind asks questions, even if at the end they may not agree.

I understand! So when I bring up the additional witnesses, you accuse me of shifting the conversation. When you bring up a totally different topic (the KEP), you are not pivoting or shifting the conversation?

[Sledge]

It's obvious Sledge has done only superficial reading of these issues, and only from friendly sources. As a result sledge cannot have real discussion with anyone who asks questions.

Yes, how obvious! (And convenient for you to say.)

Have you ever actually been Mormon? Do you understand anything about the Mormon experience? It seems to me from your postings that you are severely misinformed.

[Sledge]

I'll ask you this then, do you think any latter day saints believe Mormonism because there are witnesses, and wouldn't take Joseph's word alone?

I think that the witnesses are a powerful evidence for the truth of the restoration. When taken with other evidences, and especially personal witness/revelation, I think that's why people are Mormon.

How many people are going to join Mormonism after watching Witnesses (2021)?

None, probably. Who would join a religion solely based on a movie?

The witnesses don't convince anyone who isn't already willing to believe that native Americans are Jewish, that millions of Hebrew people had giant battles in Mezoamerica, that Joseph Smith saw Jesus and God the Father in the flesh, ect ect ect.

I understand if you've never been Mormon, but if you are going to discuss it I insist that you learn the basics about it. We do not believe that "Native Americans are Jewish" or that "millions of Hebrew people had giant battles in Mezoamerica." Where are you getting this stuff?

If the plan of salvation had as one if its goals proof of these ridiculous claims, the golden plates would be in a LDS museum open to examination and able to convince more than a few million people across the globe to join the religion. If that level of criticism was done, we would get exactly the same result Strang did and we would know exactly how Joseph produced the plates.

Good observation. Did you know that if god just appeared to the world right now and told them all to be Mormon all of these problems could be solved?

Alas, you don't seem to want to think philosophically about the nature of god and the purpose of religion and faith.

You think DCP responding to all of these bricks in the wall of Mormon criticism defeats the wall. Yet the proof that the wall remains is that the Mormon church for nearly 200 years has never become anything more than an oddity in the larger Christian and religious world. The CES letter allows former Mormons to see their religion how the rest of the world sees it - as a giant collection of absurdities and impossibilities that require suspension of logic and critical thinking to be a part of.

LOL! The CES letter is a propagandistic gish gallop. It asks no new questions. It provides no new thinking on any of its subjects. It's author doesn't even understand many of the "arguments" they make. And, on top of that, it's been totally annihilated by Bennett and FAIR.

[Themis]

I understand! So when I bring up the additional witnesses, you accuse me of shifting the conversation.

That was a shift as it didn't deal with the issue he was discussing with you. Not your only shift, but a good one.

When you bring up a totally different topic (the KEP), you are not pivoting or shifting the conversation?

I never brought up the KEP, which is Kirkland Egyptian Papers. I did bring up kinder-hook plates which was relevant to the gold plates discussion.

Yes, how obvious! (And convenient for you to say.)

Have you ever actually been Mormon?

I still am.

Do you understand anything about the Mormon experience?

Yes Born and raised. I do wonder about how much you know when you don't even know what the KEP are.

[drumdude]

I understand if you've never been Mormon, but if you are going to discuss it I insist that you learn the basics about it.

I'm old enough to remember the introduction to the Book of Mormon that the missionaries gave me before I was baptized. Before the LDS church changed it.

Maybe you're not old enough to remember what it said.

[Themis]

I think that the witnesses are a powerful evidence for the truth of the restoration.

Most LDS do believe they are. What you are being asked to do is articulate why? Way more people saw and handled the kinder-hook plates and believe they were ancient records. We both agree they were not ancient, but a fraud. So why should the 8 witnesses who supposedly saw and handled the gold plates be a better witness to them being ancient then the witnesses of faked kinder-hook plates? The kinder-hook plates were open for all to see and handle. The gold plates were not. Joseph controlled the experience of the 8 on where, when and how they viewed them. The 3 witnesses make more supernatural claims, but all 11 still have reasonable questions of how they saw and experienced the plates. Were any of the eleven in a position to reasonably know if the plates were actual ancient records from physically viewing them?

I understand if you've never been Mormon, but if you are going to discuss it I insist that you learn the basics about it. We do not believe that "Native Americans are Jewish" or that "millions of Hebrew people had giant battles in Mezoamerica." Where are you getting this stuff?

The church has taught this from Joseph to our day. Maybe not exactly where some of the events took place in the America's. They don't empathize it as much today, but most members still have these views, but there is a growing number who have altered their view to the Book of Mormon representing a very small group of people, even though the Book of Mormon mentions millions. Are you an active LDS member? I sometimes wonder.