Thread for discussing climate change

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Chap
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Chap »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:00 am
I saw this on Reddit, and thought it might be useful as a way to explain climate change to the entrenched:
[...]

It's like if someone says, "I have terrible anxiety." "Why?" "Because I'm buried in debt and I have no money." "But have you objectively considered the evidence that you aren't buried in debt and have no money?" "But that's the just the situation I'm in." "But why are you only considering the evidence that supports that view?" "It's just right here. It's obvious." "I think you're anxiety is coming from only considering the most extreme interpretations of your situation." "The basic facts are extreme!"
- Doc
That sums it up all too well. To adapt a line from a poem by Rudyard Kipling (think Jungle Book and so on), of which the original advocated the kind of calm in a crisis that is obligatory in a good army officer:

"If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs ... maybe you just don't understand how serious the situation is."
Maksutov:
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Res Ipsa »

Chap, the case has been closed on the human role in climate change for quite a while. The primary natural forcing is the Milankovitch cycles, which should be creating a long term cooling trend, leading to a new ice age in a couple thousand years. If the natural trend is cooling, then 100% of the warming we’ve observed is not natural — caused by us.
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Chap
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Chap »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:49 pm
Chap, the case has been closed on the human role in climate change for quite a while. The primary natural forcing is the Milankovitch cycles, which should be creating a long term cooling trend, leading to a new ice age in a couple thousand years. If the natural trend is cooling, then 100% of the warming we’ve observed is not natural — caused by us.
Err, I did sort of know that! The point of my 99.9% post was simply that any position that claims that 'not all scientists agree' about anthropogenic global heating is, if possible, even more ludicrous and baseless than it was a decade ago.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Morley
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Morley »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:49 pm
Chap, the case has been closed on the human role in climate change for quite a while. The primary natural forcing is the Milankovitch cycles, which should be creating a long term cooling trend, leading to a new ice age in a couple thousand years. If the natural trend is cooling, then 100% of the warming we’ve observed is not natural — caused by us.
Res. The best treatment I've seen of Climate Change was in your discussion with Water Dog on the board that was.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Res Ipsa »

Morley wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:49 pm
Chap, the case has been closed on the human role in climate change for quite a while. The primary natural forcing is the Milankovitch cycles, which should be creating a long term cooling trend, leading to a new ice age in a couple thousand years. If the natural trend is cooling, then 100% of the warming we’ve observed is not natural — caused by us.
Res. The best treatment I've seen of Climate Change was in your discussion with Water Dog on the board that was.
Thanks! That was a fun one for me. I was driving from Salt Lake to Seattle for a portion of that discussion, and it was fun to have something interesting to do at rest stops. I also had a great time with my knock down, drag out with Tobin years back.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:47 pm
Morley wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm


Res. The best treatment I've seen of Climate Change was in your discussion with Water Dog on the board that was.
Thanks! That was a fun one for me. I was driving from Salt Lake to Seattle for a portion of that discussion, and it was fun to have something interesting to do at rest stops. I also had a great time with my knock down, drag out with Tobin years back.
1. Did you drive a vehicle to work, if so, why? You could've walked.
2. Did you take a hot shower, why? You don't need to run a water heater to take a shower?
3. Did you run your HVAC yesterday, today? Why? It hurts the planet.
4. How bout meat consumption? Do you raise your own meat? This morning factories all over the world opened and turned on electricity so the could slaughter meat for people. Those workers had to drive to work in gas guzzling cars. The processed meat is then put in diesel burning tractor trailers and driven 100s if not 1000s of miles because the people reading this are to lazy to raise and slaughter their own meat.
5. Same for vegetables! Do you grow enough produce to feed your family?
6. Last but not least! Have you ever tried calling All Gore to ask him if he could sake all his houses and down grade to ONE small house for him and Elizabeth. If not, why? Shouldn't he practice what he preaches?
Chap
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Chap »

Atlanticmike reminds us, yet again, of an extremely important point:

If someone that A-m chooses to question does not give all the approved answers to his questions about lifestyle, there ia no point in any further discussion about the measures that governments might or might take in order to diminish the chances that steadily increasing global heating over the coming decades will damage the capacity of human beings to live, work, and feed themselves on the surface of the only planet we have to live on.

But while A-m is pursuing his valuable survey of posters attitudes and activities:

Global heating ‘may lead to epidemic of kidney disease’
Deadly side-effect of heat stress is threat to rising numbers of workers in hot climates, doctors warn


A while back, A-m told us that working in high temperatures was no problem: you just wear a sombrero, or something similar.

But in the real world ... people are already dying. And as temperatures rise, more and more of them will die.
Chronic kidney disease linked to heat stress could become a major health epidemic for millions of workers around the world as global temperatures increase over the coming decades, doctors have warned.

More research into the links between heat and CKDu – chronic kidney disease of uncertain cause – is urgently needed to assess the potential scale of the problem, they have said.

Unlike the conventional form of chronic kidney disease (CKD), which is a progressive loss of kidney function largely seen among elderly people and those afflicted with other conditions such as diabetes and hypertension, epidemics of CKDu have already emerged primarily in hot, rural regions of countries such as El Salvador and Nicaragua, where abnormally high numbers of agricultural workers have begun dying from irreversible kidney failure.

CKDu has also started to be recorded as affecting large numbers of people doing heavy manual labour in hot temperatures in other parts of Central America as well as North America, South America, the Middle East, Africa and India.

Kidneys are responsible for fluid balance in the body, which makes them particularly sensitive to extreme temperatures. There is an emerging consensus that CKDu should be recognised as a heat stress-related injury, where workers are developing subtle damage to their kidneys each day while they are in the field. This in turn can develop into severe kidney disease or complete renal failure over time.

This repetitive low-grade assault on the kidneys does not necessarily come with symptoms, so workers may not even know they are getting sick over time until things get so bad that they end up with end-stage kidney disease, said Dr Cecilia Sorensen, director of the global consortium on climate and health education at Columbia University.

“I think we just have no idea what the scope of the problem is because we’re not doing surveillance for it,” she said. “There are some regions that are clearly hotspots but in terms of its prevalence and how serious a problem it is, I don’t even think we’ve begun to wrap our brains around it.”

The documented epidemics, however, have similar characteristics. Those affected tend to be people who work in hot conditions outdoors and come from disproportionately vulnerable backgrounds – socially and economically – with limited access to medical care or insurance, or live in areas with modest healthcare infrastructure.

Sorensen said that, according to current data, it appears that the severity of the kidney damage gets worse the more vulnerable and desperate the worker is. She says that those who have no control over their working conditions or are incentivised to work for longer hours with no breaks, such as workers paid for how many berries they pick or how much sugar cane they cut, are likely to be those worst affected.

“They’re getting sick from the work that they’re doing, but they have no other options, and there’s very little regulatory oversight in the work environment that prevents this from happening. It’s a huge blind spot and a human rights issue,” she said.

Dr Ramón García Trabanino, a clinical nephrologist and medical director at El Salvador’s Centre of Hemodialysis, first noticed an unusual number of CKD patients saturating his hospital as a medical student more than two decades ago.

“They were young men,” he said, “and they were dying because we didn’t have the budget or the capacity to give them dialysis treatment. We did the best we could, but they kept dying and more kept coming.”

Since then he has started researching similar epidemics in Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama.

“If you take a look at the maximum temperature maps in the region in Central America, you will notice that they match the regions where we are describing the disease, the hotspots,” he said. “El Salvador and Nicaragua – every year we have a fight for the first place for the country with the highest mortality due to CKD. Our mortality rates are about 10 times higher than what we should expect. The number of new patients is overwhelming.”

Although the consensus view is that CKDu is related to heat exposure and dehydration, some scientists believe exposure to agrochemicals and infectious agents, as well as genetic makeup and risk factors related to poverty, malnutrition, and other social determinants of health, are also likely to play a role.

Prof Richard Johnson, of the University of Colorado’s school of medicine, said: “What is less clear is the fact that recurrent heat stress is not just a problem in the sugar cane fields of Nicaragua. Even in our own societies, the possibility that heat stress and dehydration can be playing a role in kidney disease is not as appreciated.”

Changes in working practices mean many workers now have access to water, rest and shade, but heat stress remains a problem.
Prof Tord Kjellstrom, of the Australian National University’s national centre for epidemiology and population health, said that heat stress is not getting the attention it needs in debates around how to mitigate the worst effects of the climate emergency.

“As the number and intensity of hot days increases, more and more working people will face even greater challenges to avoid heat stress, particularly the two-thirds of the global population who live in tropical and sub-tropical areas. Heat exhaustion threatens the livelihoods of millions and undermines efforts to reduce poverty,” said Kjellstrom, who is also a former member of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

“Global heating is a serious threat both to workers’ lives and the livelihoods of millions of people. Emerging policies on climate must take this into account if we are to have any chance of getting to grips with what is ahead.”
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Atlanticmike
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Atlanticmike »

Chap wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:23 pm
Atlanticmike reminds us, yet again, of an extremely important point:

If someone that A-m chooses to question does not give all the approved answers to his questions about lifestyle, there ia no point in any further discussion about the measures that governments might or might take in order to diminish the chances that steadily increasing global heating over the coming decades will damage the capacity of human beings to live, work, and feed themselves on the surface of the only planet we have to live on.

But while A-m is pursuing his valuable survey of posters attitudes and activities:

Global heating ‘may lead to epidemic of kidney disease’
Deadly side-effect of heat stress is threat to rising numbers of workers in hot climates, doctors warn


A while back, A-m told us that working in high temperatures was no problem: you just wear a sombrero, or something similar.

But in the real world ... people are already dying. And as temperatures rise, more and more of them will die.
Chronic kidney disease linked to heat stress could become a major health epidemic for millions of workers around the world as global temperatures increase over the coming decades, doctors have warned.

More research into the links between heat and CKDu – chronic kidney disease of uncertain cause – is urgently needed to assess the potential scale of the problem, they have said.

Unlike the conventional form of chronic kidney disease (CKD), which is a progressive loss of kidney function largely seen among elderly people and those afflicted with other conditions such as diabetes and hypertension, epidemics of CKDu have already emerged primarily in hot, rural regions of countries such as El Salvador and Nicaragua, where abnormally high numbers of agricultural workers have begun dying from irreversible kidney failure.

CKDu has also started to be recorded as affecting large numbers of people doing heavy manual labour in hot temperatures in other parts of Central America as well as North America, South America, the Middle East, Africa and India.

Kidneys are responsible for fluid balance in the body, which makes them particularly sensitive to extreme temperatures. There is an emerging consensus that CKDu should be recognised as a heat stress-related injury, where workers are developing subtle damage to their kidneys each day while they are in the field. This in turn can develop into severe kidney disease or complete renal failure over time.

This repetitive low-grade assault on the kidneys does not necessarily come with symptoms, so workers may not even know they are getting sick over time until things get so bad that they end up with end-stage kidney disease, said Dr Cecilia Sorensen, director of the global consortium on climate and health education at Columbia University.

“I think we just have no idea what the scope of the problem is because we’re not doing surveillance for it,” she said. “There are some regions that are clearly hotspots but in terms of its prevalence and how serious a problem it is, I don’t even think we’ve begun to wrap our brains around it.”

The documented epidemics, however, have similar characteristics. Those affected tend to be people who work in hot conditions outdoors and come from disproportionately vulnerable backgrounds – socially and economically – with limited access to medical care or insurance, or live in areas with modest healthcare infrastructure.

Sorensen said that, according to current data, it appears that the severity of the kidney damage gets worse the more vulnerable and desperate the worker is. She says that those who have no control over their working conditions or are incentivised to work for longer hours with no breaks, such as workers paid for how many berries they pick or how much sugar cane they cut, are likely to be those worst affected.

“They’re getting sick from the work that they’re doing, but they have no other options, and there’s very little regulatory oversight in the work environment that prevents this from happening. It’s a huge blind spot and a human rights issue,” she said.

Dr Ramón García Trabanino, a clinical nephrologist and medical director at El Salvador’s Centre of Hemodialysis, first noticed an unusual number of CKD patients saturating his hospital as a medical student more than two decades ago.

“They were young men,” he said, “and they were dying because we didn’t have the budget or the capacity to give them dialysis treatment. We did the best we could, but they kept dying and more kept coming.”

Since then he has started researching similar epidemics in Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama.

“If you take a look at the maximum temperature maps in the region in Central America, you will notice that they match the regions where we are describing the disease, the hotspots,” he said. “El Salvador and Nicaragua – every year we have a fight for the first place for the country with the highest mortality due to CKD. Our mortality rates are about 10 times higher than what we should expect. The number of new patients is overwhelming.”

Although the consensus view is that CKDu is related to heat exposure and dehydration, some scientists believe exposure to agrochemicals and infectious agents, as well as genetic makeup and risk factors related to poverty, malnutrition, and other social determinants of health, are also likely to play a role.

Prof Richard Johnson, of the University of Colorado’s school of medicine, said: “What is less clear is the fact that recurrent heat stress is not just a problem in the sugar cane fields of Nicaragua. Even in our own societies, the possibility that heat stress and dehydration can be playing a role in kidney disease is not as appreciated.”

Changes in working practices mean many workers now have access to water, rest and shade, but heat stress remains a problem.
Prof Tord Kjellstrom, of the Australian National University’s national centre for epidemiology and population health, said that heat stress is not getting the attention it needs in debates around how to mitigate the worst effects of the climate emergency.

“As the number and intensity of hot days increases, more and more working people will face even greater challenges to avoid heat stress, particularly the two-thirds of the global population who live in tropical and sub-tropical areas. Heat exhaustion threatens the livelihoods of millions and undermines efforts to reduce poverty,” said Kjellstrom, who is also a former member of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

“Global heating is a serious threat both to workers’ lives and the livelihoods of millions of people. Emerging policies on climate must take this into account if we are to have any chance of getting to grips with what is ahead.”
Did you drive a vehicle to work? To the grocery store? If so why? Why not ride a bike or walk? Did you take a shower with water heated up by electricity or gas? Why? Do you raise and slaughter your own meat or did you rely on countless diesel guzzling tractor trailers transporting your food to your local grocery store? Why?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:47 pm


Thanks! That was a fun one for me. I was driving from Salt Lake to Seattle for a portion of that discussion, and it was fun to have something interesting to do at rest stops. I also had a great time with my knock down, drag out with Tobin years back.
1. Did you drive a vehicle to work, if so, why? You could've walked.
2. Did you take a hot shower, why? You don't need to run a water heater to take a shower?
3. Did you run your HVAC yesterday, today? Why? It hurts the planet.
4. How bout meat consumption? Do you raise your own meat? This morning factories all over the world opened and turned on electricity so the could slaughter meat for people. Those workers had to drive to work in gas guzzling cars. The processed meat is then put in diesel burning tractor trailers and driven 100s if not 1000s of miles because the people reading this are to lazy to raise and slaughter their own meat.
5. Same for vegetables! Do you grow enough produce to feed your family?
6. Last but not least! Have you ever tried calling All Gore to ask him if he could sake all his houses and down grade to ONE small house for him and Elizabeth. If not, why? Shouldn't he practice what he preaches?
If I stopped driving to work, taking hot showers, heating my home, eating meat, eating vegetables, etc., it would not change the temperature of the atmosphere. The notion that, unless I become a hermit to no effect whatsoever, I can't propose measures that can have an effect, is just silly. I don't know why you think that's any kind of effective argument – it just makes you sound ignorant.

I'm perfectly willing to have measures that will be effective in getting us to zero emissions affect me the same as they will affect everyone else, so I'm being completely consistent. I'm just not into satisfy your demand for ineffective virtue signaling.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

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Atlanticmike
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:40 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:13 pm


1. Did you drive a vehicle to work, if so, why? You could've walked.
2. Did you take a hot shower, why? You don't need to run a water heater to take a shower?
3. Did you run your HVAC yesterday, today? Why? It hurts the planet.
4. How bout meat consumption? Do you raise your own meat? This morning factories all over the world opened and turned on electricity so the could slaughter meat for people. Those workers had to drive to work in gas guzzling cars. The processed meat is then put in diesel burning tractor trailers and driven 100s if not 1000s of miles because the people reading this are to lazy to raise and slaughter their own meat.
5. Same for vegetables! Do you grow enough produce to feed your family?
6. Last but not least! Have you ever tried calling All Gore to ask him if he could sake all his houses and down grade to ONE small house for him and Elizabeth. If not, why? Shouldn't he practice what he preaches?
If I stopped driving to work, taking hot showers, heating my home, eating meat, eating vegetables, etc., it would not change the temperature of the atmosphere. The notion that, unless I become a hermit to no effect whatsoever, I can't propose measures that can have an effect, is just silly. I don't know why you think that's any kind of effective argument – it just makes you sound ignorant.

I'm perfectly willing to have measures that will be effective in getting us to zero emissions affect me the same as they will affect everyone else, so I'm being completely consistent. I'm just not into satisfy your demand for ineffective virtue signaling.
Bull crap!! Total fxxxin bull crap! I'm holding up a mirror and showing you your hypocrisy. All you have to do is Google "carbon emission drop during covid pandemic" and you'll be able to read 100s of articles on how carbon emissions dropped during 2020 and the early part of this year. It said that carbon emissions dropped 6.4% or by 2.3 billion tonnes during this time period. So are you actually telling me less activity like I mentioned doesn't lower carbon emissions?
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