Four Hours at the Capitol: A Must Watch HBO Documentary

[Gadianton]

And by the way, if two guys protecting themselves with a gun in public feel threatened by each other and the rational decision is to shoot lest be shot, that's a prisoner's dilemma and proof the market solution of open carry is a sham.

[ceeboo]

Good morning, Q-Man

Well hell. There ya go. If you and people like you believe that someone at the capital was a lynching insurrectionist (even if they weren’t), then it only makes sense that people that are judged by you apply the same logic to you. People probably think you want to burn down the cities and loot the crap out of the country.

That really is the state of the state.

As long as we keep pretending that the summer of riots was just fun and wholesome, but that a grandma walking the rope line is a killer and insurrectionist, we can just keep on with the great divorce.

Yeah - This post sums it all up quite accurately, in my opinion.

It surely is the current state of the state - no doubt about it. Sad, unfortunate, and really scary as I see it - Given the weaponizing and politicization of everything these days (including the horrific events of January 6th), I have no idea how this country can change the path that it's traveling - and we are traveling at very dangerous and irresponsible high rates of speed.

Perhaps saddest of all is that I think it's all by design (for the most part - there are always exceptions.) When large amounts of citizens can label other large amounts of citizens as insurrectionists (or a natzi - or a fascist - or a homophobe - or a racist - or etc) they provide their own justification to place these various labels of evil upon others and believe that they are warranted to do so. If successful (and it certainly has been successful) it results in complete dismissal/rejection of the "evil ones" who have had these labels cemented upon them - And in return, the "evil ones" return the favor by rejecting/dismissing those who apply these dreadful labels.

The result is what we see today - A hugely divided country (totally unbridgeable at this point, in my opinion) with an ever-growing number of American citizens that have no interest in sincere engagement with anyone who doesn't think and/or believe like they do. Yeah - tolerance and thought diversity used to be a thing in this country (some would say an important and valuable thing) but it isn't a thing anymore.

Frightening!

[Gadianton]

Yes Kishkumen, Faqs has been proven a genius. He recommended his fellows to get in the faces of liberals with their guns, and when they flinch, shoot their asses.

[Morley]

It surely is the current state of the state - no doubt about it. Sad, unfortunate, and really scary as I see it - Given the weaponizing and politicization of everything these days (including the horrific events of January 6th)

Yeah, it's strange how folks can politicalize an insurrection at the United States Capitol that is seeking to disrupt a joint session of Congress, that in turn, is there to count electoral votes from the November election. Oh, yeah, after the sitting US President sent them there. Really, who could think that there's anything about politics in that scenario?

[honorentheos]

I care.

Trained individuals carrying firearms into into charged situations experience changes to their perception that their training is supposed to help mitigate so they can still make decisions that limit the potential for a preventable shooting. Yet even with that training many shootings occur. Adrenaline kicking in makes a person more likely to perceive things in a way that will cause them to leap hard into a fight-flight response.

Kyle was not a trained individual. He is a teenager whose brain is that of a teenager which is already a disadvantage when it comes to rational risk assessment. He found himself outside of the car dealership and prevented from reentering it putting him in a situation where he was isolated and among perceived enemies with ill intent.

This was a preventable incident. And you should care, too.

I agree with this part. I don’t think that being 17 and having an AR justified him being a target or that a 17 year old can’t defend himself.

I have said it over and over. He should not have been there. He did not fire first. He was threatened. This is a mess.

Guns rights advocates ought to use situations like this to build common ground for responsible ownership. in my opinion, responsible gun owners should have more in common with those outraged over the situation than with those defending Kyle.

[Kishkumen]

And by the way, if two guys protecting themselves with a gun in public feel threatened by each other and the rational decision is to shoot lest be shot, that's a prisoner's dilemma and proof the market solution of open carry is a sham.

Yeah. Funny how that works. I was just thinking the other day that Kyle Rittenhouse was a "good guy with a gun." How did that work out?

I think it showed, once again, that untrained idiots wandering around with weapons in a heated and confused situation just is a bad idea. Every gun nut out there imagines he would be a hero when the reality is that he would probably be Kyle or one of the people Kyle shot and killed.

[Kishkumen]

Yeah - This post sums it all up quite accurately, in my opinion.

It surely is the current state of the state - no doubt about it. Sad, unfortunate, and really scary as I see it - Given the weaponizing and politicization of everything these days (including the horrific events of January 6th), I have no idea how this country can change the path that it's traveling - and we are traveling at very dangerous and irresponsible high rates of speed.

Perhaps saddest of all is that I think it's all by design (for the most part - there are always exceptions.) When large amounts of citizens can label other large amounts of citizens as insurrectionists (or a natzi - or a fascist - or a homophobe - or a racist - or etc) they provide their own justification to place these various labels of evil upon others and believe that they are warranted to do so. If successful (and it certainly has been successful) it results in complete dismissal/rejection of the "evil ones" who have had these labels cemented upon them - And in return, the "evil ones" return the favor by rejecting/dismissing those who apply these dreadful labels.

The result is what we see today - A hugely divided country (totally unbridgeable at this point, in my opinion) with an ever-growing number of American citizens that have no interest in sincere engagement with anyone who doesn't think and/or believe like they do. Yeah - tolerance and thought diversity used to be a thing in this country (some would say an important and valuable thing) but it isn't a thing anymore.

Frightening!

And yet, surprise, surprise, the conversation moved on beyond this post, and Cultellus and I actually managed to find some common ground!

Here is what I see. No one is going to look at a group of people who are storming the Capitol to interfere with a lawful election and say, "Gee, look at that nice grandma exercising her right to free speech!" Such a group will be called insurrectionists, even if they aren't, to a person, all insurrectionists.

That is the way language and sociality work. If I hang out with a certain kind of people, I am liable to be lumped in with them. If I think somewhat different from them, but I am still generally supportive of them, then I will be lumped in with them.

An event that is an insurrection will transfer to its participants the title of insurrectionist.

Encountering this mundane phenomenon, I am not going to say, "Wow, that's the trouble with this country, people who attend insurrections are called insurrectionists." I would instead say, "What is wrong with those insurrectionists rising up violently against their government in what was a peaceful and lawful election?"

I am sorry that Donald Trump was able to bamboozle his followers into believing that the election was stolen. I am sorry that he all but completely destroyed an entire political party such that they aided and abetted his planned insurrection. I am sorry that people lost their lives over Donald Trump, a man who was and is utterly unfit to be president of the United States of America. A person who is really just a vapid, nasty human being. You know you have lost your way when the election of Trump could even happen. I do partly blame the Democrats for that happening. Hillary Clinton is a terrible candidate, supremely qualified as a technocrat but a complete failure as a politician.

People need to relearn politics and reengage in politics. If we continue to leave politics to professionals to work out, we are going to get the shills and con artists that are dragging us into dystopia. Following Hillary Clinton around and looking down on people who don't use the pronoun "they" properly is not the answer. Neither is following around a pathological narcissist reality television star who admires authoritarian strongmen a good idea.

We need to get back to understanding what a republic is and working hard to make that happen by participating in it lawfully. If it is possible. It may not be. That is what I worry about. That is why I would like to see our two-party duopoly ended.

[Kishkumen]

Guns rights advocates ought to use situations like this to build common ground for responsible ownership. in my opinion, responsible gun owners should have more in common with those outraged over the situation than with those defending Kyle.

Yep!

[Cultellus]

Yeah - This post sums it all up quite accurately, in my opinion.

It surely is the current state of the state - no doubt about it. Sad, unfortunate, and really scary as I see it - Given the weaponizing and politicization of everything these days (including the horrific events of January 6th), I have no idea how this country can change the path that it's traveling - and we are traveling at very dangerous and irresponsible high rates of speed.

Perhaps saddest of all is that I think it's all by design (for the most part - there are always exceptions.) When large amounts of citizens can label other large amounts of citizens as insurrectionists (or a natzi - or a fascist - or a homophobe - or a racist - or etc) they provide their own justification to place these various labels of evil upon others and believe that they are warranted to do so. If successful (and it certainly has been successful) it results in complete dismissal/rejection of the "evil ones" who have had these labels cemented upon them - And in return, the "evil ones" return the favor by rejecting/dismissing those who apply these dreadful labels.

The result is what we see today - A hugely divided country (totally unbridgeable at this point, in my opinion) with an ever-growing number of American citizens that have no interest in sincere engagement with anyone who doesn't think and/or believe like they do. Yeah - tolerance and thought diversity used to be a thing in this country (some would say an important and valuable thing) but it isn't a thing anymore.

Frightening!

And yet, surprise, surprise, the conversation moved on beyond this post, and Cultellus and I actually managed to find some common ground!

Here is what I see. No one is going to look at a group of people who are storming the Capitol to interfere with a lawful election and say, "Gee, look at that nice grandma exercising her right to free speech!" Such a group will be called insurrectionists, even if they aren't, to a person, all insurrectionists.

That is the way language and sociality work. If I hang out with a certain kind of people, I am liable to be lumped in with them. If I think somewhat different from them, but I am still generally supportive of them, then I will be lumped in with them.

An event that is an insurrection will transfer to its participants the title of insurrectionist.

Encountering this mundane phenomenon, I am not going to say, "Wow, that's the trouble with this country, people who attend insurrections are called insurrectionists." I would instead say, "What is wrong with those insurrectionists rising up violently against their government in what was a peaceful and lawful election?"

I am sorry that Donald Trump was able to bamboozle his followers into believing that the election was stolen. I am sorry that he all but completely destroyed an entire political party such that they aided and abetted his planned insurrection. I am sorry that people lost their lives over Donald Trump, a man who was and is utterly unfit to be president of the United States of America. A person who is really just a vapid, nasty human being. You know you have lost your way when the election of Trump could even happen. I do partly blame the Democrats for that happening. Hillary Clinton is a terrible candidate, supremely qualified as a technocrat but a complete failure as a politician.

People need to relearn politics and reengage in politics. If we continue to leave politics to professionals to work out, we are going to get the shills and con artists that are dragging us into dystopia. Following Hillary Clinton around and looking down on people who don't use the pronoun "they" properly is not the answer. Neither is following around a pathological narcissist reality television star who admires authoritarian strongmen a good idea.

We need to get back to understanding what a republic is and working hard to make that happen by participating in it lawfully. If it is possible. It may not be. That is what I worry about. That is why I would like to see our two-party duopoly ended.

Odd as it may be, I agree with all of this.

There are nuances of differences but for the most part, I agree.

Here is a difference that I will point out. But I want to be clear that I do not disagree with Kish, I just see it differently. I am not saying “yes, but.” I am saying, “yes, AND....”

Not everyone sees this as an insurrection to overthrow a perfect election or perfect republic or a perfect democracy. For many, it was a rebellion against a flawed, imperfect and non-transparent process. Their loyalty and hope for the country could have been as altruistic or sincere as protesters from 2016/2017 or fanatics of the Russia conspiracy. Their anxiety may have been as peaked (or piqued - for Kish!) by the riots of 2020 and the polarization of the election.

By stereotyping all the participants as insurrectionists by association (an argument that Kish solidly makes), we are moving toward polarization not away from it. We are cultivating more extreme reactions, not less.

[Father Francis]

Does that even matter? The guy went there with clear intentions.

Which guy? The guy with the gun? Which guy exactly?

Also, how TF would you know? Because someone on Twitter said so? I sure don’t know everyone’s “intentions.” You are a lucky witch.

So he went for craps and giggles? Don't be so obtuse, then again it's your shtick...