RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Marcus]

You don’t have to have somewhere to go. You can figure it out for yourself if religion is still for you or not, and which one. “Where will you go?” Most places are better than staying in that boat. You may not think it, but ultimately if you believe in god then you probably believe in some sort of judgment and either you are doing things for the reward, to escape punishment, or a mixture.

None of my neighbors are religious, I am no longer religious, and we look after and help one another better than I have ever seen a home teacher or neighbor do inside of Mormonism. I had one neighbor that was religious where we used to live and they were the worst neighbor in the building. We bought this house from JWs and they were not the best neighbors either. Though maybe we are all happy to be with our own bitter hollow shells that MM think we have since we don’t have a relationship with god.

Exactly. Those 'where will you go?' and 'what will you do?' comments are just threats. It's interesting to note that using statements like that is a common technique used on abuse victims.

[Philo Sofee]

I mean, COME ON. . . People in Fast & Testimony meeting "routinely" say "I believe this church is true?"

In our ward we routinely have younger married folks with kids…so your traditional family types…where a spouse will stand and express their testimony and also their struggles with doubt in a secular world. In one form or another they will admit to their daily struggles with faith and the influences in the world that are there to pull them away.

A lot more common than when I was growing up. Back then the standard testimony was “I know.” That’s not as common nowadays. There seem to be more expressions stating that continued activity on the covenant path will lead towards greater knowledge and a stronger more mature faith. The Alma 32 route. I think more and more people realize that it’s almost impossible to KNOW in the literal sense, although some may have been given that gift.

And yes, more and more folks are much more tolerant towards expressions of “I’m trying, but I struggle.” The fellow that presented our Elders Quorum lesson yesterday introduced himself to us as someone who hasn’t been coming to the second hour of church for a long time but he wanted to repent. I’d never seen his face before. He gave a wonderful and thoughtful lesson and was very upfront about his foibles and imperfections even though he was trying to stay on the covenant path. Very honest and authentic.

There isn’t NEAR the perfectionism thing I saw when growing up. It’s healthy and it’s good to see. And yet the younger members still express their beliefs that perfectionism, or being complete, is the ideal and that Christ is the way, the truth, and the light.

I think the MM’s were very honest and upfront with their beliefs and made a strong case for faith over doubt and secularism. RFM seemed like an empty suit in this respect. He didn’t offer any alternatives for the power of faith to motivate righteousness and live with purpose, believing in something greater than oneself. But he was honest in admitting that he didn’t really have any alternatives for people once they left the church as a result of listening to his podcasts.

Regards,
MG

Good damage control MG, we expected nothing less. It is not up to those of us who want truth to then offer an alternative view. It is not up to the college professor of mathematics to each the truth of math and THEN have to also go find jobs for the graduates. The job we have is teaching the truth, and showing the problems which leadership claim there are none. MM missed the entire point, as usual. Joseph Smith said "I teach them correct principles, they govern themselves." That is how I understood RFM's approach. You want to be babysat your whole life, be told what to think and believe, how to dress, eat, groom, by all means go with that. Some of the rest of us want the further light and truth Father promised and it isn't being taught in Mormonism. Faith - a phony faith - is being made a placebo for truth and based upon half truths, downright lies, and manipulating intimidations against those who go further than the level the Brethren are at. RFM said point blank he isn't out to take people out of Mormonism. He is finding truth and showing how Mormonism is obscuring it. It is that simple. The truth is what people have after Mormonism, what they wish to do with that is entirely up to them, not RFM.

[malkie]

I didn't watch the whole thing - perhaps what I chose to watch was exceptionally bad, but I found it rather boring, and lasted only a few minutes.

My biggest observation from what I did watch is that the moderator had no idea at all about how to ask a question that could reasonably be answered. He rambled for 30-40 seconds, stringing together a bunch of ideas and qualifiers, then verbally stuck a question mark at the end, leaving the participants to figure out what on earth he was getting at.

Did I just get an especially bad couple of minutes, or were all of the moderator's questions like this?

[MG 2.0]

Joseph Smith said "I teach them correct principles, they govern themselves." That is how I understood RFM's approach.

In regards to the nature of God and our relationship to Him I fail to see how RFM is teaching correct principles. Now, I understand that your belief is that the CofJCofLDS is not teaching correct doctrine in regards to the Godhead, and that’s OK as far as it goes. But RFM as someone that “doesn’t know” and really doesn’t have anything to offer in this regard.

You say that you have gone onto a “greater knowledge of light and truth”. That’s all fine and good.

Who or what is God? If He exists, what is our relationship to Him? Does He have a plan for His children?

RFM is an “empty suit” in this regard. MM’s have actual beliefs in something rather than nothing in as far as a supreme intelligence that rules over the universe and cares about and loves His creations. You fault them for THAT?

I am interested in your response to the three questions I asked.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

In regards to the nature of God and our relationship to Him I fail to see how RFM is teaching correct principles.

Congratulations on yet again missing the point.

Now, I understand that your belief is that the CofJCofLDS is not teaching correct doctrine in regards to the Godhead, and that’s OK as far as it goes. But RFM as someone that “doesn’t know” rally doesn’t have anything to offer in this regard. You say that you have gone onto a “greater knowledge of light and truth”. That’s all fine and good.

Who or what is God? If He exists, what is our relationship to Him? Does He have a plan for His children?

RFM is an “empty suit” in this regard. MM’s have actual beliefs in something rather than nothing in as far as a supreme intelligence that rules over the universe and cares about and loves His creations. You fault them for THAT?

I am interested in your response to the three questions I asked.

Regards,
MG

The LDS Church is the ultimate empty suit in this regard. If they really had anything to offer, they would have done it by now. They are ever kicking the can down the road, collecting tithing, building stuff, and leaving all of the important questions unanswered, often by design.

Anyone can go around and say, "I know that God lives," and perform little rituals to save people. You could do it tomorrow, MG. You probably do it on occasion right now. Just saying I know and performing rituals is not really offering anything of substance. Sooner or later the errors and weak points show. The reason why the LDS Church is losing members is because those assertions and rituals are not enough. They will continue to lose members because they refuse to do anything substantive to address the real problems with their product.

And Quackoo, Cardboard, and Whitebread can sit around complaining that RFM is not saying "I know God lives" and not doing little rituals, but, then, that wasn't working anyway. Not for the people that these jokers pretend they are trying to reach as they goof around.

[MG 2.0]

In regards to the nature of God and our relationship to Him I fail to see how RFM is teaching correct principles.

Congratulations on yet again missing the point.

Not.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The LDS Church is the ultimate empty suit in this regard. If they really had anything to offer, they would have done it by now.

Well of course that would be your response as a non believer.

And that’s OK.

I’m just saying that RFM had nothing to offer. The LDS church does.

And you don’t have to believe it.

Regards,
MG

[Fence Sitter]

Again, for all you really really smart people, are you able to tell me what religion is proved 100% true with FACTS? No! You can't! Because religion, any religion isn't about actual facts.

It may come as a complete surprise to you but most of us here realize that Mormonism isn't about facts.
You are spot on in claiming religion cannot be proved, in fact those religions that survive the longest are the ones whose factual claims are unverifiable.

[Kishkumen]

Not.

Regards,
MG

Um, yes you did.

[Kishkumen]

Well of course that would be your response as a non believer.

And that’s OK.

I’m just saying that RFM had nothing to offer. The LDS church does.

And you don’t have to believe it.

Regards,
MG

Well, I don't believe it, and neither do a lot of the people who are leaving. When you drill down into the problems and questions, the LDS Church comes up with goose eggs, MG. Then we hear about a "shelf" and "doubting your doubts" and all other kinds of nonsense. The simple fact is that the LDS Church leadership is negligent in its responsibility to guide the church by revelation. Those pseudo-divine board meetings that Eyring blubbers about are not cutting it, and the negative results are obvious.

RFM does have something to offer. He is there with the information that shows that the emperor has no clothes. To those who have rightly suspected that this is the case, that is a hell of a lot to offer. The question is not what RFM has to offer you--that may indeed be nothing--but what he has to offer those who are unhappy, tired of lame answers, and suspect something is amiss. He definitely has something to offer those people, regardless of your naysaying.