“King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

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Moksha
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Moksha »

The idea that a canopic jar containing a liver could be an Egyptian god seems rather bilious.
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Shulem
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The Pyramid Scheme

Post by Shulem »

Dear Readers,

It’s time to add a special feature to this long and drawn out thread and reward both the faithful and the unfaithful with a special NEW counter-argument against a commonly used Book of Abraham apologetic so-called “hit” or “bullseye”. This post is going to eliminate or, at minimum, downplay a frequently used apologetic bullseye that is designed to lend credibility to Smith’s Book of Abraham. An example of taking out a bullseye was recently demonstrated in another thread here in the Celestial forum (RATED G), a handy reference in case you’re interested:

Jeff Lindsay and Stephen O. Smoot take aim at Dan Vogel over “Shinehah”

I feel a presentation is appropriate and will mix it with the missing King’s name in Facsimile No. 3 in order to show how things that are assumed to exist may not have existed at all, just like the invisible or nonexistent King’s name. I wish to point out that Joseph Smith drew information from Josephus and the Adam Clarke Commentary with regard to how Abraham communicated the science of celestial astronomy while in Egypt. Apologists credit Book of Abraham references to astronomy in Egypt as a “hit” or a “bullseye”. Here is what Josephus and Adam Clark said:

Josephus Book1 Chapter 7 wrote:Berosus mentions our father Abram without naming him, when he says thus: “In the tenth generation after the Flood, there was among the Chaldeans a man righteous and great, and skillful in the celestial science.”
Josephus Book 1 Chapter 8 wrote:He communicated to them arithmetic, and delivered to them the science of astronomy; for before Abram came into Egypt they were unacquainted with those parts of learning; for that science came from the Chaldeans into Egypt, and from thence to the Greeks also.
Adam Clarke Commentary Genesis 13:2 wrote:Josephus says that a part of this property was acquired by teaching the Egyptians arts and sciences.

It’s not my intention to slam Josephus or Adam Clarke for their historical contributions and commentaries. But I do call in question their ability to appropriately represent ancient Egypt and how it may have involved Abraham who in himself is a questionable character in antiquity -- in other words, he may not have ever really existed but was a faith promoting story written for the Hebrew religion. That however is entirely another argument and I’m not going there. What I am questioning is Josephus’s and Clarke’s historical reference about a man who may never have existed and in whom most of their information about him is from the Bible and other books of that genre that follows a chronology that is out of synch with Egypt’s. With that, there is a very important claim about Egypt and the Hebrews that is utterly false both historically and chronologically. I speak of the pyramids west of the Nile river and who built them. Josephus credits some of this work as being performed by the Hebrew slaves in Exodus.

The Bible accounts for “a new king over Egypt” yet Josephus takes it one step further and says, “the crown now came into another family” which suggests dynastic changes in the annals of Egyptian history. This dynasty that Josephus referred to included kings who built pyramids! Josephus described the slave labor of the Hebrews: “to cut a great number of channels for the river, and to build walls for their cities and ramparts, that they might restrain the river, and hinder its waters from stagnating, upon its running over its own banks: they set them also to build pyramids.” (Josephus Book 2, 9:1)

Pyramid building stopped after the Middle Kingdom which was long before Moses’s time. Adam Clarke said, “Some writers suppose that beside these cities the Israelites built the pyramids” yet in the same breath he acknowledges that “the history of the pyramids be not found in the book of Exodus, it is nowhere else extant; their origin, if not alluded to here, being lost in their very remote antiquity.” Clarke goes on to reference the ancient historian saying, “Josephus expressly says that one part of the oppression suffered by the Israelites in Egypt was occasioned by building pyramids.”

Egyptologist Rosalie David wrote:Therefore, the concept of a slave as someone who is totally owned by another did not exist in ancient Egypt. Even the kind of slave labor that did exist was not a major factor in the economy, and early projects requiring large scale labor, such as the Old Kingdom pyramids, would have been built by serfs rather than slaves.

Slaves did not build the pyramids. There may have been some slavery involved but not very much. We are to understand that when the farming season was in idle mode the farmers and serfs were called forth to labor on the pyramids and were paid for their services. This ensured that the farmers and serfs would be able to survive and government projects were completed. The building of pyramids was of great national importance and it was the duty of the Egyptian people to build them and yet be paid for their efforts. Practically speaking, it seems to me that it would be more expensive to use slaves to build a pyramid rather than pay the local people who need the work anyway. Slaves have to be fed, guarded, housed, and forced to do a good job. Such an undertaking is not very efficient. The Hebrew slave situation in Egypt was a complete disaster and was not repeated.

Therefore, with that said, does it remain for Josephus who didn’t know jack about who built the pyramids to tell us jack about how the Egyptians learned about astronomy from Abraham? I hereby question the source and challenge Josephus and Joseph Smith! Both were wrong! Josephus’s statement that Joseph Smith picked up on about Abraham teaching the Egyptians astronomy may be safety discarded as folklore. It’s not true, nor is the nonhistorical account contained in the Book of Abraham or the missing King’s name.
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A Nail in the Coffin

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The Messenger and Advocate was the Church periodical published monthly in Kirtland and was purchased by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in February of 1837. Warren Cowdery acted as editor. The following month, the paper produced a short article about ancient Egypt and described several interesting points of which I will highlight a few for the purpose of proving how later statements given in the Times and Seasons in 1842 about Facsimile No. 3 seem to contradict earlier views. Smith had already had the papyri and mummies in his possession for 20 months.

Messenger and Advocate wrote:The government of Egypt was a hereditary monarchy. The king and the priests, who were his deputies who filled the offices and exercised all the authority both civil and ecclesiastical.

Sounds great! I like it.

Messenger and Advocate wrote: The Egyptians were tenacious of their own manners, customs and ancient usages, and had a great abhorrence to strangers and to innovation . . . The Egyptians sequestered themselves from all strangers as much as was possible. They were not known to other nations by conquest, or much commerce. They had a great antipathy to strangers, consequently never imitated them in their customs or manners.

Indeed, there is some truth to that. The Egyptians protected their own heritage as well as any other nation and probably far more! Strangers were welcome in Egypt but Asiatics and shepherds were often looked upon as a vile people. How is it that Joseph Smith would later prop Abraham upon the throne of “King Pharoah” when having recognized earlier that strangers and foreigners were abhorred? Thus, the Explanation later given in Facsimile No. 3 Fig. 1 makes no sense at all.

Messenger and Advocate wrote: They preceded most of the ancient nations in the knowledge of the useful arts, and in the cultivation of the sciences.

Yes! Egypt was practically on top of the world and built the largest and tallest structures known to man. All of this was done long before shepherd Abraham was born! The Egyptians possessed great skills in science and astronomy and built great geometric structures in position with the stars above that required complicated skills involving mathematics and geometry long before Abraham entered the scene. And yet, Joseph Smith mistakenly takes what Josephus had to say about Egyptian history when he published his Explanations for Facsimile No. 3 several years later.

Messenger and Advocate wrote: Their pyramids and obelisks, are monuments, evincive of their skill in building and architecture as well as of their industry and perseverance to accomplish such great undertakings. Indeed the whole country abounds with the remains of ancient grandeur, surpassing almost any other. Thebes in upper Egypt was one of the most splendid cities in the world. Modern travellers describe the stones that were used in some of its walls or towers as being of curious workmanship, and of immense size. The Egyptians possessed considerable knowledge of geometry, mechanics and astronomy.

Indeed, the Egyptians possessed great skill and ability in building wonderful monuments and structures, even the Great Pyramids that were constructed long before Abraham. Isn’t that right, Dr. Gee? Yet, just five years later Joseph Smith would say, “Abraham is reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy, in the king’s court” in order to find a parallel with what Josephus was expressing about Abraham’s grandeur skills in celestial science and mathematics. The Egyptians had been studying the stars for millennia before Abraham was born. The Egyptians predated Noah and the flood of 2300 BC! Predynastic Egypt peoples were studying the stars and creating civilization long before Adam was created in the garden of Eden in 4000 BC.

Isn’t that right, Dr. Gee?

Well?
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Another Nail in that Coffin

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Messenger and Advocate wrote: There was another circumstance that rendered their manners degrading in the eyes of other nations. All professions were hereditary, and the rank of each was exactly settled; the objects of religious worship were different in different parts of the kingdom, which was a fruitful source of division and controversy. Their peculiar superstitions were absurd and debasing, and their manners loose and profligate.

And yet, Abraham hops up on the throne of “King Pharaoh” and has the audacity to draw this picture for our benefit in order for Joseph Smith to tell us what it says.

What is wrong with that picture, Dr. Gee?

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Shulem
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:12 pm
The idea that a canopic jar containing a liver could be an Egyptian god seems rather bilious.

Moksha,

Imagine if you could go back in time and watch how priests eviscerated the body to prepare it for embalmment and witness the wrapping and the rituals involving interment. It really was quite a process and one which most people can hardly fathom. It was a medical procedure enshrined in religious ritual. Personally, for me, the best book I’ve read on the subject is THE MUMMY IN ANCIENT EGYPT EQUIPPING THE DEAD FOR ETERNITY by Salima Ikram and Aidan Dodson.

Let’s be clear about one thing. The jar was not a god. It was a jar that held vital organs. Nothing more. The jar was not worshipped or set up as such. It was a jar crafted to hold the vital organs and the lids were specially carved and decorated to represent the images of gods who would provide the magic and spells necessary to bless the deceased whereby the soul would once again reunite with the body and resurrect into a state of glory. That is what the Egyptians hope to obtain and their faith was based on a belief that the gods would save them if they presented themselves worthy and their hearts were found right when balanced with truth.

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. May your heart be found right when it is weighed in the balance and you are admitted into the presence of the gods.

Amen
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

bill4long wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 am
Alphus and Omegus,

I appreciate your comments, but I have a minor quibble:

Joe didn't actually write out "Alphus and Omegus" in D&C 95. What he actually wrote was:

"Son Ahman; or, in other words, Alphus; or, in other words, Omegus; even Jesus Christ your Lord."

I would appeciate it if you are going to go by "Alphus and Omegus" you would use the full moniker, and at least put the "in other words" in your identifier.

Thank you in advance.

What say? ;)

(Just kidding)
I am offended, or in other words, I think that's pretty funny.
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Shulem
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Names and more names!

Post by Shulem »

Facsimile No. 3, Fig. 2. wrote:King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.

No! Wrong.

Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 5. wrote:The idolatrous god of Elkenah.

No! Wrong.

Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 6. wrote:The idolatrous god of Libnah.

No! Wrong.

Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 7. wrote:The idolatrous god of Mahmackrah.

No! Wrong.

Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 8. wrote:The idolatrous god of Korash.

No! Wrong.
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Moksha
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Moksha »

If only the hidden portion of the long scroll had not been beamed up to Enoch, we could have learned of Abraham's sojourn to Salisbury where he advised on the astronomical calculations for the building of Stonehenge (that served as another testament to the coming of Joseph Smith).
-- Deep Hidden Mysteries of Mormonism, Interpreter Press & Storage Closet, Orem, 2023
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

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Moksha wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:35 am
If only the hidden portion of the long scroll had not been beamed up to Enoch, we could have learned of Abraham's sojourn to Salisbury where he advised on the astronomical calculations for the building of Stonehenge (that served as another testament to the coming of Joseph Smith).
-- Deep Hidden Mysteries of Mormonism, Interpreter Press & Storage Closet, Orem, 2023

Oliver Cowdery was on record for stating that papyrus in the prophet’s possession did in fact contain Egyptian astronomical calculations which is generally understood to have been the disked shaped Hypocephalus also known as Facsimile No. 2. Joseph Smith was very particular about this piece and personally assisted the printer (Reuben Hedlock) in preparing the lead plate (large cut) for the second installment publication to reflect exactly what he wanted. The prophet was personally involved in determining “the arrangement of the writing” that was used to fill in the damaged portions or empty registers. Hence, characters were borrowed or transferred from the scroll of Abraham and penciled in via Hedlock’s engraving process to complete the Facsimile and ready it for publication. Joseph’s journal records: “At my office exhibiting the Book of Abraham in the original to Brother Reuben Hedlock, so that he might take the size of the several plates or cuts, and prepare the blocks for the Times and Seasons; and also gave instruction concerning the arrangement of the writing on the large cut, illustrating the principles of astronomy, with other general business.”

Smith was interested in the arrangement and the illustrations on the Hypocephalus and he wanted it to match the Explanations he would publish as additional translations pertaining to Abraham’s knowledge of astronomy he shared with the Egyptians. Church scholars are very familiar with how Smith repaired the damaged Hypocephalus and readied it for publication.

LDS Egyptologist Michael D. Rhodes: wrote:A careful examination of Facsimile 2 shows that there is a difference between most of the hieroglyphic signs and the signs on the right third of the figure on the outer edge as well as the outer portions of the sections numbered 12-15. These signs are hieratic, not hieroglyphic, and are inverted, or upside down, to the rest of the text. In fact, they are a fairly accurate copy of lines 2, 3, and 4 of the Joseph Smith Papyrus XI, which contains a portion of the Book of Breathings. Especially clear is the word snsn, in section 14, and part of the name of the mother of the owner of the papyrus, (tay-)uby.t, repeated twice on the outer edge. An ink drawing of the hypocephalus in the Church Historian's office shows these same areas as being blank. It is likely that these portions were destroyed on the original hypocephalus and someone (the engraver, one of Joseph Smith's associates, or Joseph himself) copied the lines from the Book of Breathings papyrus for aesthetic purposes.

What Joseph Smith did in restoring the Hypocephalas was unprecedented and his work therein is proof that he could not properly read Egyptian as he said he could and that he didn’t really know what he was doing but was inventing things and making it up as he went along. That’s how the Book of Abraham came to be. Here is a photo of a copy of the original damaged Hypocephalus from the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. It’s a wonderful representation of Egyptian gods, ceremonious rites, and reverent worship to be had in the Egyptian heavens. Needless to say, nowhere on this piece is found the names of Abraham or that of the God he subscribed to. The piece has absolutely nothing to do with the Hebrews or Jehovah. It is 100% Egyptian as were all the funerary papyri Smith purchased from Chandler.


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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Shulem »

I recommend everyone take time out and listen to a Backyard Professor podcast:

The Backyard Professor: Joseph Smith Papyri - Mormon Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein's Defense Fails Again

Kerry shows how LDS Egyptologists are on a mission to defend the Book of Abraham at all cost. They defend the indefensible by using irrelevant parallels and mixing in half-truths that are carefully crafted to woo ignorant readers into thinking that all is well and the Book of Abraham is on solid ground.

The story about Abram lying to the Egyptians about his wife Saria being his sister rather than his wife reminds me how John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein carry on in a campaign founded upon defending deception with deception. It’s a pious lie!

Lying is wrong. It just is. Let’s come clean and be better than that. We can do better! Can I help? I want to help.

John, repent!
Kerry, repent!

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