The substantial cost of theistic morality

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huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:13 am
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:20 pm

Eric Harris
Dylan Klebold
To be clear, I wouldn't call a Muslim robbing a liquor store a terrorist attack. He just happens to be Muslim, he is with all likelihood robbing the store completely apart from his religious beliefs. The same with someone who doesn't have publicly known strong religious beliefs committing a crime, you can't just associate that automatically with atheism. This is why I made reference to the common yell, "Allahu Akbar" that jihadists make before suicide bombings. They are very clearly announcing to the world why they are doing this. They aren't yelling "Free Palestine"

Maybe you referring to the myth that they specifically targeted Christians?
I have no interest in the Christian martyr story. Nor do i have any reason to think the pair of individuals typify atheism.

Their activity was more terrorism than liquor store robbery.
drumdude
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:05 am
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:13 am


To be clear, I wouldn't call a Muslim robbing a liquor store a terrorist attack. He just happens to be Muslim, he is with all likelihood robbing the store completely apart from his religious beliefs. The same with someone who doesn't have publicly known strong religious beliefs committing a crime, you can't just associate that automatically with atheism. This is why I made reference to the common yell, "Allahu Akbar" that jihadists make before suicide bombings. They are very clearly announcing to the world why they are doing this. They aren't yelling "Free Palestine"

Maybe you referring to the myth that they specifically targeted Christians?
I have no interest in the Christian martyr story. Nor do i have any reason to think the pair of individuals typify atheism.

Their activity was more terrorism than liquor store robbery.
Were they atheist, and was the attack meant to further the atheist religion? I say “atheist religion” only to try and presume the hypothesis to make an apples to apples comparison here.

The point was not the scale of the crime, it was the motivation.
huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:47 am
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:05 am

I have no interest in the Christian martyr story. Nor do i have any reason to think the pair of individuals typify atheism.

Their activity was more terrorism than liquor store robbery.
Were they atheist, and was the attack meant to further the atheist religion? I say “atheist religion” only to try and presume the hypothesis to make an apples to apples comparison here.

The point was not the scale of the crime, it was the motivation.
To an extent I wonder if you are moving the goal posts a bit here. You may be clarifying your intention but I think you are introducing problems. First there is no atheist religion. Your question y did not specify that the suicide terrorist attack had to be an attempt to further atheism. I will point out that Islamic suicide bombs have nothing to do with spreading Islam. They are acts of war utilizing available weapons. Yes they employ some Islamic ideas in the execution of the attack but they are not looking to convert nonbelievers.
Similarly Eric Harris had no interest in gaining converts. The pair wished to kill people to demonstrate their relationship to the world.
drumdude
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:20 am
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:47 am


Were they atheist, and was the attack meant to further the atheist religion? I say “atheist religion” only to try and presume the hypothesis to make an apples to apples comparison here.

The point was not the scale of the crime, it was the motivation.
To an extent I wonder if you are moving the goal posts a bit here. You may be clarifying your intention but I think you are introducing problems. First there is no atheist religion. Your question y did not specify that the suicide terrorist attack had to be an attempt to further atheism. I will point out that Islamic suicide bombs have nothing to do with spreading Islam. They are acts of war utilizing available weapons. Yes they employ some Islamic ideas in the execution of the attack but they are not looking to convert nonbelievers.
Similarly Eric Harris had no interest in gaining converts. The pair wished to kill people to demonstrate their relationship to the world.
Was he an atheist? That should probably be established first.
huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:15 am
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:20 am


To an extent I wonder if you are moving the goal posts a bit here. You may be clarifying your intention but I think you are introducing problems. First there is no atheist religion. Your question y did not specify that the suicide terrorist attack had to be an attempt to further atheism. I will point out that Islamic suicide bombs have nothing to do with spreading Islam. They are acts of war utilizing available weapons. Yes they employ some Islamic ideas in the execution of the attack but they are not looking to convert nonbelievers.
Similarly Eric Harris had no interest in gaining converts. The pair wished to kill people to demonstrate their relationship to the world.
Was he an atheist? That should probably be established first.
His writing and notes are extant. He may not have been a completely orthodox atheist but falls in the general area I think.
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:20 pm
I think the better approach is to acknowledge that the problem isn’t religion, per se, but something more akin to fanaticism or dogmatism as applied to any philosophy, whether religious or secular.
Would you agree religious people are more likely to risk their lives? And would you agree a religious person is more likely to start a gunfight?

And who is more likely to be superstitious and dogmatist?
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:20 pm
There’s no true Scotsman fallacy that I see fellow atheists commit from time to time when talking about atheistic regimes that committed mass murder of their citizens. This reminds me of that. It involves either trying to somehow tie the regime to religion or claiming that the regime was like religion in some way.
"But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772

Religion can be blamed for the rise of Stalin. For hundreds of years organized religion indoctrinated the Russians to follow the holy leader.
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:09 pm
why?because imagination is the engine of invention, the desire to explore and learn. It is the first step toward understanding. It is the power for people to seek after something more than what is right in front of them or that they were programed to perform. It is power for good and it can be a power for bad and lots of mundane stuff in between. I can imagine something for dinner and start the process of preparation in order to reach the substance of the image my imagination created.
I am not sure how religion makes that more likely.
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:09 pm
It is common to observe Russia had a tradition of autocratic power. Still a civil war followed by many murders was necessary to actually establish Stalin's control. I think your what if he was Christian is a pretty empty what if.
What is the difference between murder and "capital punishment"? and how many Russians died due to famine?
huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:59 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:09 pm
why?because imagination is the engine of invention, the desire to explore and learn. It is the first step toward understanding. It is the power for people to seek after something more than what is right in front of them or that they were programed to perform. It is power for good and it can be a power for bad and lots of mundane stuff in between. I can imagine something for dinner and start the process of preparation in order to reach the substance of the image my imagination created.
I am not sure how religion makes that more likely.
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:09 pm
It is common to observe Russia had a tradition of autocratic power. Still a civil war followed by many murders was necessary to actually establish Stalin's control. I think your what if he was Christian is a pretty empty what if.
What is the difference between murder and "capital punishment"? and how many Russians died due to famine?
I did not say that religion made imagination more likely.

It is generally understood that the famine was intentional or at least the result of brutal policies. I suppose you could call those murder and the people shot in the head as capital punishment.
Res Ipsa
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by Res Ipsa »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:45 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:20 pm
I think the better approach is to acknowledge that the problem isn’t religion, per se, but something more akin to fanaticism or dogmatism as applied to any philosophy, whether religious or secular.
Would you agree religious people are more likely to risk their lives? And would you agree a religious person is more likely to start a gunfight?

And who is more likely to be superstitious and dogmatist?
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:20 pm
There’s no true Scotsman fallacy that I see fellow atheists commit from time to time when talking about atheistic regimes that committed mass murder of their citizens. This reminds me of that. It involves either trying to somehow tie the regime to religion or claiming that the regime was like religion in some way.
"But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772

Religion can be blamed for the rise of Stalin. For hundreds of years organized religion indoctrinated the Russians to follow the holy leader.
No idea. Go find some data. In the U.S., starting a gunfight requires ownership of a gun, gun ownership is correlated with political conservatism, and political conservatism is correlated with religious identification. Not only that, but more than half the country identifies as religious. So, if I had to bet, I'd bet religious. But none of that tells us whether, if religion vanished right now, whether we'd have more or fewer people starting gunfights. This is basic correlation v. causation, and, based on past conversations, I know you know the difference and how important it is.

I have no idea about whether there is any significant correlation between risking lives and religious belief. Even if there were, I'd have no idea as to how the causation would run. I've never encountered a religious person who even implied that they would engage in risky behavior because this life was not important to them.

The article you cited doesn't support your claims at all. It provides no evidence that religion caused the rise of Stalin. It's about how religion survived despite the best efforts of an atheistic regime. You're proving my point about the No True Atheist game.
he/him
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds….”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:26 am
It is generally understood that the famine was intentional or at least the result of brutal policies. I suppose you could call those murder and the people shot in the head as capital punishment.
According to the all knowing wikipedia, "Soviet famine of 1932–1933 Main articles: Holodomor genocide question and Soviet famine of 1932–1933 Soviet famine of 1932–1933, with areas where the effects of famine were most severe shaded The deaths of 5.7[26] to perhaps 7.0 million people[27][28] in the Soviet famine of 1932–1933 and Soviet collectivization of agriculture are included among the victims of repression during the period of Stalin by some historians. This categorization is controversial...was primarily a result of natural factors"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mo ... eph_Stalin

So here are some unknowns
1. Was Stalin responsible for the famine?
2. How many people executed were criminals?
3. How many Soviet leaders were religious?
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