“King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

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Shulem
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Lying for the Lord

Post by Shulem »

These TWO facts are certified as lies for the Lord:

1. Joseph Smith translated the hieroglyphic writing above the head of Isis as being the name of King Pharaoh.

2. In Smith’s account, God told Abram to lie and deny that Sariah is his wife and to tell the Egyptians she is just a sister.

Today we see how Mormon Egyptologists are lying for the Lord by defending the false translations and interpretations of Facsimile No. 3. There is nothing about what Smith said that is based on truth. Everything Smith said about the persons and the writing in the vignette are false. And yet, John Gee defends Smith as if he truly translated the Book of Abraham from a missing roll. But it should be understood that Joseph Smith was incapable of translating Egyptian into English and could not have performed such a feat even if he had an actual roll that contained the Book of Abraham on it! Smith could not have translated it just as he could not translate the writing in Facsimile No. 3! The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 go hand in hand with the chapters. All of it is nonhistorical and fictitious story telling.

Isn’t that right, professor Gee?
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What if?

Post by Shulem »

It’s interesting to note that in all my Book of Abraham studies and research of historical statements and observations made by those who met Joseph Smith, nobody ever challenged or confronted him about his translations being false. Nobody had the knowledge or skills to question whether Smith was making things up or was totally wrong about how he was translating. There is no record of anyone ever telling Joseph Smith that the Book of Abraham was not on the papyrus and that he was making stuff up out of thin air.

What might have happened if members of the Church in Nauvoo had questioned the legitimacy of the Book of Abraham translation as it relates to what’s truly written on the papyrus? It leads us to wonder how Smith may have reacted if news reporters abroad had received information from nonMormon scholars that Smith’s translations were bogus and his work was an absolute fraud. These accusations could have certainly been made against the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 if the published account had been circulated at prestigious universities in the eastern US and overseas. How might Joseph Smith react and what might he have said to cure the following hypothetical circumstances had they actually happened during the end of his ministry?

  • Newspapers in New York and surrounding communities report that Joseph Smith’s translations of the Facsimiles are a total fraud and that it’s impossible to have translated his Book of Abraham from papyri in his possession.
  • Scholars of eminence challenge Joseph Smith’s interpretations of Facsimile No. 3 and invite him to debate the subject at a prominent eastern university of his choice.
  • French Egyptological scholars have since replied to American enquiries concerning Smith’s false Explanations of the so-called Book of Abraham. The Explanations of the Facsimiles have been positively determined to be completely wrong and are incorrect translations of the Egyptian vignettes.
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Robin Scott Jensen

Post by Shulem »

Let’s be perfectly clear in stating that historian and scholar Robin Scott Jensen does NOT have a testimony or a sure conviction of the following statement he made when he was interviewed by Steven Smoot in 2018:

Robin Scott Jensen wrote:It could be that Joseph Smith assumed that he was translating from the papyri when he was not, in fact translating from the papyri. We do not know in the revelatory process how much of this is Joseph Smith and how much of it is divine.

Jensen’s ludicrous apologetic is without merit and we could expect Joseph Smith himself would have rebuked it in the strongest of terms. There is zero chance that Joseph Smith would have agreed with what Jensen proposes in order to excuse the prophet’s translation. Let’s break down Jensen’s apologetic and see how it falls apart the instant it is proposed.

  • “It could be”; Meaning maybe or maybe not, but I don’t know.
  • “Joseph Smith assumed”; Smith assumed nothing only when he was speaking as a man not using his divine calling as a prophet, seer, and revelator. When he spoke for the Lord under the influence of the Spirit there was nothing to assume because in those circumstances whether it’s the Lord’s voice or that of his servant, it is the same.
  • “When he was not”; Who in Kirtland or Nauvoo would have dared told the prophet that he was “NOT” really translating the Book of Abraham from the papyrus in which he held in his hands? Imagine Oliver Cowdery voicing that faithless utterance given by Jensen! This apologetic nonsense goes against everything ever said by Joseph Smith and his companions who served under him. Is Robin Jensen also willing to admit that Joseph Smith assumed he was translating from the gold plates when he was not? Where do all the assumptions end?
  • “We do not know in the revelatory process”; Thus, Jensen admits to belonging to a Church that doesn’t know how Smith’s revelations work because they don’t get revelation themselves! Not a single prophet since the days of Joseph Smith has been able to explain anything about Joseph Smith’s translation of the papyrus. It’s all non-revelation based on not understanding how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the papyrus.
  • “How much of this is Joseph Smith”; Well, I’d say that every single word given in the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 is all Joseph Smith and none of it is divine. Does that sound fair?
  • “How much of it is divine”; It’s safe to say that 0% of the translations and interpretations of Facsimile No. 3 are divine. Not a single word. It’s all Joseph Smith! It’s all based on his uninspired assumptions. It’s all based on his lies and pretending to have gifts from God that he in fact did not.

Therefore, since Jensen does not have a testimony or a sure conviction of the above apologetic, then it stands to reason that any alternative explanations he wishes to tender are not going to be pleasant at all. So, Robin, if Joseph Smith wasn’t assuming as you suggest, then what?
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LDS Employees and Pain Sticks

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:27 pm
So, Robin, if Joseph Smith wasn’t assuming as you suggest, then what?
LDS employees cannot come out and say Joseph was making it up or else they would be booted from their employment and face running the gauntlet of discommendation while being jabbed by pain sticks.
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Re: LDS Employees and Pain Sticks

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:27 am
LDS employees cannot come out and say Joseph was making it up or else they would be booted from their employment and face running the gauntlet of discommendation while being jabbed by pain sticks.

John Gee is formally on record for stating that the Catalyst theory is a “decent second choice”. The Missing Roll theory is his primary choice, his personal pet theory in which he bases his faith that Smith translated Egyptian. Everything, absolutely everything about professor Gee’s beliefs of a missing roll or a catalyst approach is based entirely on faith and faces an enormous mountain of facts that demonstrate how Smith was faking his translations and wasn’t really translating Egyptian into English. Faith is required in order to accept the idea that Smith translated Egyptian because there is nothing to show or demonstrate that Smith actually was translating Egyptian as we clearly see in the Facsimiles and in the Egyptian Papers that Smith managed in the office of the Church Presidency.

It’s safe to say that not a single non-Mormon on planet earth investigating these matters would ever support the idea or claim that Smith was actually translating Egyptian into English. Smith would lose his case in the court of every human mind except of course for those devotees of the Church who base everything on so-called testimonies they claim from the special witness of the Holy Ghost that tells them the Church is true. I understand all this, having been there, done that. But not no more! My eyes were opened to the deception of Mormonism and false ideas of feelings and thoughts about the Church being true. Personal testimony of the Church being true is terrible mismanagement of the mind!

In spite of all this, I’ve pointed out in this thread that the translation issue is really just the tip of the iceberg and just one nail in the coffin in which the Book of Abraham is put to rest. The ultimate super-sized nail that forever closes the casket and buries it under a mountain of dirt is the fact that the historical narrative given for Egypt’s making in chapter one is absolutely false. THAT is the monster under the bed and the ultimate nail in making a case against the Book of Abraham. I’m quite sure that professor Gee will agree with me on this vital point. It IS the ultimate nail in the coffin.
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Mismanagement of the Mind

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:46 pm
Personal testimony of the Church being true is terrible mismanagement of the mind!
The desire to seek the truth is strong with us. Forces that drive us from the truth do seem to be terrible mismanagement, but it pays the bills at BYU. Like working for the American Tobacco Institute.
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Re: Mismanagement of the Mind

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:19 pm
The desire to seek the truth is strong with us. Forces that drive us from the truth do seem to be terrible mismanagement, but it pays the bills at BYU. Like working for the American Tobacco Institute.

:(

________________________________________________________________
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PAY TO THE
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:idea: Real Egyptology is NOT from the Book of Abraham, Brigham Young University, or the Mormons!

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Cracked Pharaoh's Name in Facsimile #3

Post by Ed1 »

Hi Shulem/Paul, I got it. I cracked it. The name is Tutmoses.

For too long people have placed Abraham in 1800 BC or so.
But the problem is, in the Kirtland Egyptian papers, the name for the Land of the Chaldees is the Kassite name for the place, ChalsidonHiash (Kardunash)

Why the Kassites if the Kassite time period is too late?

As it turns out, it isn't too late. The Kassites were in Sumer from 1595 through 1155, and Abraham may have also spoken Kassite if he came from Sumer in that time period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Bible

This site says Abraham according to the chronology of the Bible, entered Egypt at around 2236 after creation, if creation is placed at year 1, and that means that if according to some, we place creation at 3761 BC, this means that Abraham entered Egypt somewhere around 1525 BC, or sometime around that, sometime around the same time that the Kassites were in Sumer. So we have things starting to line up, and answering perhaps why examples of the Kassite language are found in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

The names of the Pharoah's around that time period are:
Ahmose, Amenhotep, Thutmose

If these assumptions are right, the name would be one of these three names for the Pharaoh of the Book of Abraham.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_I

This site shows that the name ThutMose is actually:

ḏḥwtj-ms,Tʼaḥawtī-mīsaw, meaning "Thoth is born"

One symbol for Thoth is the bread loaf, as I have documented elsewhere, but see this for example:

https://www.egyptianhieroglyphs.net/gar ... sign-list/

ḏḥwtj-ms,Tʼaḥawtī-mīsaw, meaning "Thoth is born"

Rhodes' transliteration of the text is this:
throne-bread-egg-swallow(bird)-mouth-bread-Vulture-flag
Q1 X1 H8 G36 D21 G14 R8

notice that the last 3 are mouth bread vulture
I think the mouth is a marker like a cartouche but also like a pictograph saying that something will be mouthed or pronounced here.

The key now is bread-vulture.

Here are the Hebrew words for these signs in succession, similar to when I decoded the Shulem cryptogram:

kisseh lehem betsah deror peh lehem ozniyyah nes

putting the two together, bread and vulture, we have:
lehemozniyyah

Notice the pronunciation of this part:

lehemoz

Remember, lehem is bread, a symbol for Thoth/ḏḥwtj

In other words, a cryptogram/pun/wordplay set between Egyptian and Hebrew pronunciations:
ḏḥwtj-moz, Tutmoses

It is interesting that an egg is one of the symbols here, and that the name speaks of Thoth being born.

Have fun

Ed
“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.” ― Matsuo Basho
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Re: Cracked Pharaoh's Name in Facsimile #3

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
For too long people have placed Abraham in 1800 BC or so.

<snip>

. . . this means that Abraham entered Egypt somewhere around 1525 BC

Ed,

Joseph Smith does not agree with your time reckoning or the date you’ve concocted in order to move Abraham up the chronological timeline to meet a fantasized version in melding biblical events with Egyptian chronology as it relates to Egyptian affairs and its Asiatic relations with the outside world. I’ve already posted several statements in which Joseph Smith emphatically and authoritatively made a solemn declaration in stating *when* Abraham was in Egypt through the dating of the mummies after the books of Abraham & Joseph were buried with the mummies. Joseph Smith’s word is final when it comes to Mormonism.

Therefore, I will copy and paste several posts below for your benefit and to remind readers who the real authority of Mormonism is when it comes to setting biblical *dates* for the Church.

Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:24 pm
It could be argued that Ed1 is ALSO peddling false narratives in rejecting original statements and confirmations that Joseph Smith officially made through public media and other announcements. Smith made several distinct and amazing statements about the papyrus which he possessed; some of which related to the AGE of the papyrus.

How is it that Ed1 has changed the meaning of Smith’s own declarations regarding the physical AGE of the papyrus into something that no longer has antiquity or age as Smith solemnly declared it did? I propose here and now that Ed1 is peddling false narratives in denying what Smith proclaimed with regard to the AGE of the papyrus and has turned it into something that Smith never embraced. Ed1 has taken it upon himself to replace Joseph Smith or, at minimum, represent him in a manner in which Smith was never known to represent.

The AGE of the papyrus! What is it?
Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:55 pm
Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:24 pm
The AGE of the papyrus! What is it?

The saints in Nauvoo depended entirely upon what the prophet Joseph Smith had to say about the age of the papyrus. When Smith spoke authoritatively it was a God breathed statement uttered from the mouth of Jesus Christ, standing in the very presence of his closest brother, the Holy Ghost. The statement is binding upon the whole church, including Ed1 who doesn’t seem to be in step with what Smith said about the papyrus.

How old was the papyrus found clutched within the arms of the mummies which held them?

What did GOD say?

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:08 pm
Jeff Lindsay | Nov 10, 2017 wrote:One of the most interesting and original portions that draw upon Gee’s extensive scholarship is his discussion of the ancient owners of the papyri in Chapter 5. The owners “were among the most literate and educated people of Ptolemaic Egypt” and one of them, Horos, “served as prophet in three different temples in the Karnak temple complex” (p. 59). Situated in Thebes, he would have had access to grant “Theban temple libraries, containing narratives, reference works, and manuals, as well as scrolls on religion, ritual, and history” (p. 61). Further,

Ptolemaic Thebes had a sizable Jewish population; some of them served as the tax collectors. The Egyptian religion of the time was eclectic. Foreign elements like deities and rites—including those from the Greek religion and Judaism—were added to Egyptian practices. The papyri owners also lived at a time when stories about Abraham circulated in Egypt. If any ancient Egyptians were in a position to know about Abraham, it was the Theban priests. (p. 61)

You do realize that Gee is contradicting solemn and authoritative statements made by Joseph Smith in that the papyrus and mummies were much older than the Ptolemaic era? I realize that Gee is trying to align the evidence of the age of the papyrus and the mummies they possessed with conventional Egyptology but Smith is officially on record for having declared his own wisdom through God. Smith is on record for stating that the mummies and the papyrus on their persons were entombed for some 3,500 years. Smith stated this knowledge as having come from the supreme source of the Holy Ghost and sealed his declaration by the authority of the priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, you see, Gee’s argument is with Joseph Smith. Here is indisputable black and white proof to that effect:

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
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Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!


followed by:

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:46 am
Please allow me to refer back to the earlier reference I cited in this thread about Smith making grandeur statements of his ability to represent the papyrus and mummies as truly ancient and on the order of being some 3,500 years old! That’s important because Smith was roughly dating the relics in his possession to that era and was not just feign claiming a guess but was invoking the very name of JESUS CHRIST and the authority of the priesthood vested in him as prophet, seer, and revelator. So, if you will permit me, I’d like to repost that reference because it provides an opening statement to the authority by which Joseph Smith was endorsing his Book of Abraham and was doing so under the divine auspice of God himself through the manifestation of the Holy Ghost.

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
TIMES AND SEASONS
"Truth will prevail."
Vol. IV. No. 24.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. November 1, 1843. [Whole No. 84.

HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH.


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Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!


followed by:

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Joseph Smith states the above as diamond truth. The declaration of the truth of his statement is sealed by the power of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ and the sublime power of God. It is thus given as the word of God to the entire world to include Presidents and Emperors.

The mummies and the papyri are some 3,500 years old.

That *IS* the word of God. Amen.
Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:31 pm
Please, AGAIN, consider the solemn statement made by Joseph Smith concerning the age of the papyrus and the mummies because I have something further to add in order to help better understand the full implications of what Smith was expressing.

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
TIMES AND SEASONS
"Truth will prevail."
Vol. IV. No. 24.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. November 1, 1843. [Whole No. 84.

HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH.


Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!

Let us refer to the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants which also included the Lectures on Faith published in Church canon until 1921 when they were removed. The Lectures of Faith was a source of information in which Smith taught biblical chronology and much of that is also still in the original canon of the D&C:

LECTURE SECOND. Of Faith. SECTION II. 53 wrote:We have now traced the chronology of the world, agreeably to the account given in our present bible, from Adam to Abraham, and have clearly determined, beyond the power of controversy, that there was no difficulty in preserving the knowledge of God in the world, from the creation of Adam, and the manifestation made to his immediate descendants, as set forth in the former part of this lecture, so that the students, in this class need not have any dubiety resting on their minds, on this subject; for they can easily see, that it is impossible for it to be otherwise; but that the knowledge of the existence of a God, must have continued from father to son, as a matter of tradition, at least. For we cannot suppose, that a knowledge of this important fact, could have existed in the mind of any of the before mentioned individuals, without their having made it known to their posterity.

LECTURE II gives a key point in understanding chronology particular to the dating of Abraham:

50 wrote:Reu died in the, 2026th year of the world, Serug in 2049th, Terah in the 2083rd, Arphaxed in the 2096th, Salah in the 2126th, 'Shem in the 2158th, Abraham in the 2183rd, and Eber in the 2187th: which was 4 years after Abraham's death. And Eber was the fourth from Noah.

Thus, according to the chronology, Abraham died 2,183 years after the world began through Adam. Joseph Smith was deeply interested in biblical chronology and how to date the time of the ancient Patriarchs. Consider this from an official Church publication in which Smith endorsed:

THE EVENING AND THE MORNING STAR Independence, Mo. August, 1832 wrote:
PRESENT AGE OF THE WORLD.

There are so many different opinions upon, as well as various periods to the age of the world, that we fear the truth of the matter will be believed by few. Whether by the commentators upon the sacred writings, or by the clergy, the term of four thousand and four years, was put down as the exact time from the beginning till the birth of the Savior, we shall not pretend to say, but content ourselves by stating, that 4004 years, which is the present Christian calculation, added to the current year of our Lord, makes but 5836 years since the commencement of time in this world. But upon collecting the passed periods that the Lord has been pleased to measure out to his servants, by the prophets, we find a very different amount of years from the beginning. We compute thus:

Chapters. Years.

Gen. 5 & 8 From Adam to the end of the flood, ... 1656

" 11. From the flood to Abram, .............. 292

" 21. From Abram to Isaac, .................. 100

" 25. From Isaac to Jacob, ................... 60

" 47. From Jacob's birth to his entering Egypt, 130

Ex. 12. The children of Israel in Egypt, ..... 430

From their departure out of Egypt till the birth of the Savior.

----------------------------------------------------------------- 1491

Years before Christ, ................. 4159

Since his birth, ..................... 1832

From the beginning till now, ......... 5991

Deduct, .............................. 5836

Difference, .......................... 155

Now, when Joseph Smith made his general statement that the papyrus and mummies were some 3,500 years old, we need to consider the year in which he made that statement.

Thus, 1843 AD - 3,500 years = 1657 BC which is the time of the Patriarchs, in particular Joseph of Egypt.

We know that Joseph Smith often used the Adam Clarke Commentary in the Joseph Smith translation of the bible. This has been firmly established as a fact and the evidence to that is incontrovertible. Smith spent a lot of time revising the Book of Geneses and moreover chapter 50. Now let us look in the Adam Clarke Commentary and see what dating is available in a table he presents that pertains to the Patriarchs in question, especially JOSEPH of Egypt:

Please note that the first date represents A.M. and the second is B.C., whereby Clarke states, “The first year of the world, answering to the 710th year of the Julian period, and supposed to be 4004 before the vulgar era of the birth of Christ.”

Adam Clarke Commentary Geneses 50
Adam Clarke wrote:2259 Joseph is born, Genesis 30:23-24. 1745
Adam Clarke wrote:2276 Joseph, aged seventeen years, falling under the displeasure of his brothers, they conspire to take away his life, but afterwards change their minds, and sell him for a slave to some Ishmaelite merchants, who bring him to Egypt and sell him to Potiphar, Genesis 37:0 1728
Adam Clarke wrote:2285 Joseph, through the false accusation of his mistress, is cast into prison, where, about two years after, he interprets the dreams of the chief butler and the chief baker, Genesis 39:0, Genesis 40:0. 1719
Adam Clarke wrote:2289 Joseph interprets the two-prophetic dreams of Pharaoh, Genesis 41:0. 1715
Adam Clarke wrote:2300 Joseph sells corn to the Egyptians, and brings all the money in Egypt into the king's treasury, Genesis 47:14. 1704
Adam Clarke wrote:2315 Jacob, having blessed his sons and the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, dies, aged 147 years. He is embalmed and carried into Canaan, and buried in the cave of Machpelah, Genesis 49:1. 1689
Adam Clarke wrote:2369 Joseph dies, aged 110, having governed Egypt fourscore years. 1635

The point of this entire exercise demonstrates HOW Joseph Smith may have been influenced in dating the papyrus and the mummies and we clearly see that this dating *IS* dated to the very lifetime of JOSEPH who possessed his great grandfather’s book entitled “The Book of Abraham” as well as his own book that he wrote called “The Book of Joseph” which Joseph Smith promised to someday translate when he had the time.

Now to tie it all together we only need confirm that Joseph Smith provided this particular information (3,500 years) as part of his prophetic calling and did so through the mantle of being President of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood and sealing it up in the name of Jesus Christ. Clearly, this has been established in this thread by the reference cited in the Times and Seasons. So with that taken, let it be understood that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that the Books of Abraham & Joseph in his possession were physically as old as the Patriarchs themselves, original autographs written by their own hands.

You will note that the commentary provides a date of 1635 BC for the death of Joseph of Egypt and the 3,500 year reference to the age of the records and mummies is placed at 1657 BC which implies that the records were entombed with pious Egyptians shortly before Joseph passed away or, thereabouts
Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:20 pm
How much more clear need Joseph Smith be? He stated that the mummies had been entombed for 3,500 years and that the records were preserved on their very persons being sealed up and kept from the world for all that time. Other testimonials were also given that Smith reported the antiquities truly were biblical in nature and the age on order of some 4,000 years. Those testimonials come from those who wrote down what Smith said. But the statement I cited earlier given by Smith himself in the Times and Seasons should be all you need to know that the very records in question were ancient enough to have been written by the very hands of Abraham & Joseph and were in fact their own authentic records or autographs, SCRIPTURE restored by Joseph Smith.
Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pm

Let us for sheer pleasure quote Joseph Smith; a sermon that you never hear over the pulpit and will lift eyebrows and cause a smile to form on anyone’s face -- both the believer and the unbeliever. Pay special attention to the blue text as it authoritatively dictates the context in which is most interesting.

Verily, the mummies and the papyrus in which Joseph Smith purchased were declared by God in the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the holy priesthood to be on the order of 3,500 years old.

You may follow and compare at these links, both the handwritten version and the actual publication in the Times and Seasons:

Joseph Smith, History

TIMES AND SEASONS, November 1, 1843

Joseph Smith wrote:
DEAR SIR:-Your letter of the 24th ult. has been regularly received; its contents duly appreciated, and its whole tenor candidly considered; and, according to my manner of judging all things in righteousness, I proceed to answer you: and shall leave you to meditate whether the mathematical problems, founded upon the truth of revelation, or religion as promulgated by me, or Moses, can be solved by rules and principles existing in the systems of common knowledge.

How far you are capable of being ‘a most undeviating friend, without being governed by the smallest religious influence,’ will best be decided by your survivors, as all past experience most assuredly proves. Without controversy, that friendship, which intelligent beings would accept as sincere, must arise from love, and that love grow out of virtue, which is as much a part of religion, as light is a part of Jehovah. Hence the saying of Jesus: ‘Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend.’

You observed, ‘as I have proven myself to be a philosophical divine, I must excuse you, when you say that we must leave these influences to the mass.’ The meaning of ‘philosophical divines,’ may be taken in various ways, If, as the learned world apply the term, you infer that I have achieved a victory, and been strengthened by a scientific religion, as practiced by the popular sects of the age, through the aid of colleges, seminaries, Bible societies, missionary boards, financial organizations, and gospel money schemes, then you are wrong; Such a combination of men and means, shows a form of godliness without the power; for is it not written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the world and not after the doctrines of Christ.’ But if the inference is, that by more love, more light, more virtue, and more truth from the Lord, I have succeeded as a man of God, then you reason truly; though the weight of the sentiment is lost when the ‘influence is left to the mass,’ Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?

Of course you follow out the figure, and say, ‘the boldness of my plans and measures, together with their unparalleled success, so far, are calculated to throw a charm over my whole being; and to point me out as the most extraordinary man of the present age.’ The boldness of my plans and measures, can readily be tested by the touch stone of all schemes, systems, projects, and adventures,-truth, for truth is a matter of fact; and the fact is, that by the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics; the knowledge of which was lost to the world: in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom, and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation; which, (if they would receive the everlasting gospel,) would open the eyes of more than eight hundred millions of people, and make ‘plain the old paths,’ wherein if a man walk in all the ordinances of God blameless, he shall inherit eternal life; and Jesus Christ, who was, and is, and is to come, has borne me safely over every snare and plan, laid in secret or openly; through priestly hypocrisy, sectarian prejudice, popular philosophy, executive power, or law defying mobocracy, to destroy me.

If, then, the hand of God, in all these things that I have accomplished, towards salvation of a priest-ridden generation, in the short space of twelve years, through the boldness of the plan of preaching the gospel, and the boldness of the means of declaring repentance and baptism for the remission of sins; and a reception of the Holy Ghost, by laying on of the hands, agreeably to the authority of the priesthood; and the still more bold measures of receiving direct revelation from God, through the Comforter, as promised, and by which means all holy men, from ancient times till now, have spoken and revealed the will of God to men, with the consequent ‘success’ of the gathering of the saints, throws any ‘charm’ around my being and ‘points me out as the most extraordinary man of the age,’ it demonstrates the fact, that truth is mighty and must prevail; and that one man empowered from Jehovah, has more influence with the children of the kingdom, than eight hundred millions led by the precepts of men. God exalts the humble, and debases the haughty. But let me assure you in the name of Jesus, who spake as never man spake, that the ‘boldness of the plans and measures,’ as you term them, but which should be denominated the righteousness of the cause, the truth of the system, and power of God, which ‘so far,’ has borne me and the church, (in which I glory in having the privilege of being a member,) successfully through the storm of reproach, folly, ignorance, malice , persecution, falsehood, sacerdotal wrath, newspaper satire, pamphlet libels and the combined influences of the powers of earth and hell, I say these powers of righteousness and truth, are not the decrees or rules of an ambitious and aspiring Nimrod, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, Mahomet, Buonaparte, [Bonaparte] or other great sounding heroes, that dazzled forth with a trail of pomp and circumstances for a little season, like a comet, and, then disappeared, leaving a wide waste where such an existence once was, with only a name, nor were the glorious results of what you term ‘boldness of plans and measures,’ with the attendant ‘success,’ matured by the self aggrandizing wisdom of the priests of Baal; the scribes and Pharisees of the Jews; Popes and Bishops of christendom; or pagans of Juggernaut; nor were they extended by the divisions and sub-divisions of a Luther, a Calvin, a Wesley, or even a Campbell; supported by a galaxy of clergymen and churchmen, of whatever name or nature, bound apart by cast iron creeds, and fastened to set stakes by chain cable opinions, without revelation; nor are they the lions of the land or the Leviathans of the sea, moving among the elements, as distant chimeras to fatten the fancy of the infidel; but they are as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, and will become a great mountain and fill the whole earth. Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.] A Hebrew; Haueloheem yerau; a Greek, O theos phos esi; a Roman, Dominus regit me; a German, Gott gebe uns das licht; a Portugee, Senhor Jesu Christo e libordade; a Frenchman, Dieu defend law enforcement droit: but as I am, I give God the glory, and say in the beautiful figure of the poet;

‘Could we with ink the ocean fill;

Was the whole earth of parchment made;

And ev’ry single stick a quill;

And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love, of God above,

Would drain the ocean dry;

Nor could the whole upon a scroll,

Be spread from sky to sky.’

It seems that your mind is of such ‘a mathematical and philosophical cast, that the divinity of Moses makes not impression upon you, and that I will not be offended when you say, that you rate me higher as a legislator, than you de [do] Moses, because you have me present with you for examination;’ that ‘Moses derives his chief authority from prescription and the lapse of time; you cannot however say, but we are both right, it being out of the power of man to prove us wrong. It is no mathematical problem, and can therefore get no mathematical solution.’

Now, Sir, to cut the matter short, and not dally with your learned ideas, for, fashion’s sake you have here given your opinion, without reserve, that revelation, the knowledge of God, prophetic vision, the truth of eternity cannot be solved as a mathematical problem. The first question then is, what is a mathematical problem? and the natural answer is, a statement, proposition or question that can be solved, ascertained, unfolded or demonstrated, by knowledge, facts of figures, for ‘mathematical’ is an adjective derived from Mathesis (gr.) meaning in English, learning or knowledge. ‘Problem’ is derived from probleme, (French,) or problema, (Latin, Italian or Spanish) and in each language means a question or proposition, whether true or false. ‘Solve’ is derived from the Latin verb, solvo, to explain or answer. One thing more in order to prove the work as we proceed; it is necessary to have witnesses, two or three of whose testimonies, according to the laws or rules of God and man, are sufficient to establish any one point.

Now for the question. How much are one and one? Two. How much is one from two? One. Very well, one question, or problem is solved by figures. Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes. So three witnesses have solved that question. Again, lived there ever such a man as Moses in Egypt? The same witnesses reply certainly. And was he a prophet? The same witnesses, or a part, have left on record, that Moses predicted in Leviticus that if Israel broke the covenant they had made, the Lord would scatter them among the nations, till the land enjoyed her Sabbaths; and subsequently these witnesses have testified of their captivity in Babylon, and other places, in fulfilment. But to make assurance doubly sure, Moses prays that the ground might open and swallow up Korah and his company for transgression, and it was so: and he endorses the prophesy of Balaam, which said, out of Jacob shall come, he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city; and Jesus Christ, as him that ‘had dominion,’ about fifteen hundred years after, in accordance with this and the prediction of Moses, David, Isaiah, and many others, came, saying; Moses wrote of me, declaring the dispersion of the Jews, and the utter destruction of the ‘city;’ and the apostles were his witnesses, unimpeached, especially Jude, who not only endorses the facts of Moses ‘divinity,’ but also the events of Balaam, and Korah and many others, as true. Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies! Oh my dear Sir, the sunken Tyre and Sidon, the melancholy dust where ‘the city’ of Jerusalem once was, and the mourning of the Jews among the nations, together with such a ‘cloud of witnesses,’ if you had been as well acquainted with your God and Bible, as with your purse and pence table, the ‘divinity’ of Moses would have dispelled the fog of five thousand years, and filled you with light; for facts, like diamonds, not only cut glass, but they are the most precious jewels on earth. The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus.

The world at large, is ever ready to credit the writings of Homer, Hesid, Plutarch, Socrates, Pythagoras, Virgil, Josephus, Mahomet, and an hundred others, but where, tell me where, have they left a line, a simple method of solving the truth of the plan of eternal life? Says the Savior, ‘if any man will do his (the Father’s) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.’ Here then is a method of solving the ‘divinity’ of men by the divinity within yourself, that as far exceeds the calculation of numbers, as the sun exceeds a candle. Would to God that all men understood it, and were willing to be governed by it, that when one had filled the measure of his days, he could exclaim like Jesus; ‘veni mori, et reviviscere!’

Your good wishes to ‘go ahead’ coupled with Mahomet and a ‘right hand man’ are rather more vain than virtuous. Why, Sir, Caesar had his right hand Brutus, who was his ‘left hand’ assassin, not however applying the allusion to you.

As to the private seal you mention, if sent to me, I shall receive it with the gratitude of a servant of God, and pray that the donor may receive a reward in the resurrection of the just.

The summit of your future fame seems to be hid in the political policy of a ‘mathematical problem’ for the chief magistracy of this state, which, I suppose might be solved by ‘double proposition,’ where the errors of the supposition are used to produce a true answer.

But, Sir, when I leave the dignity and honor I received from heaven, to boost a man into power, through the aid of my friends, where the evil and designing, after the object has been accomplished, can lock up the clemency intended as a reciprocation for such favors; and where the wicked and unprincipled, as a matter of course, would seize the opportunity, to flintify the hearts of the nation against me for dabbling at a sly game in politics; verily, I say when I leave the dignity and honor of heaven, to gratify the ambition and vanity of man or men, may my power cease, like the strength of Samson, when he was shorn of his locks, while asleep in the lap of Delilah. Truly said the Savior, cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and rend you.

Shall I who have witnessed the visions of Eternity; and beheld the glories of the mansions of bliss; and the regions and the misery of the damned; shall I turn to be a Judas? Shall I who have heard the voice of God, and communed with angels; and spake as moved by the Holy Ghost for the renewal of the everlasting covenant, and for the gathering of Israel in the last days; shall I worm myself into a political hypocrite? Shall I, who hold the keys of the last kingdom; in which is the dispensation of the fulness [fullness] of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets, since the world began; under the sealing power of the Melchesedek priesthood; shall I stoop from the sublime authority of Almighty God, to be handled as a Monkey’s cat’s paw; and pettify myself into a clown to act the farce of political demagoguery? No, verily no! The whole earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves, for centuries, am impregnable, and am a faithful friend of virtue, and a fearless foe to vice; no odds, whether the former was sold as a pearl in Asia, or hid as a gem in America; and the latter dazzles in palaces, or glimmers among the tombs.

I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the Gordian knot of powers; and I solve mathematical problems of Universities: WITH TRUTH, diamond truth, and God is my ‘right hand man.’

And to close, let me say in the name of Jesus Christ to you, and to Presidents, Emperors, Kings, Queens, Governors, rulers, nobles, and men in authority every where, do the works of righteousness, execute justice and judgment in the earth that God may bless you, and her inhabitants; and

The laurel that grows on top of the mountain,

Shall green for your fame while the sun sheds a ray,

And the lily that blows by the side of the fountain,

Will bloom for your virtue till earth melts away.

With due consideration

and respect, I have the
honor to be your

most obt. servt.,

JOSEPH SMITH.

Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:22 pm
I would like to point out that there is a special problem you’ll need to work out in your own mind since you’ve chosen to embrace the Midrash Theory. It won’t be easy. Over on the King’s Name thread, I’ve quoted the entire Joseph Smith Sermon which attests that Smith declared by revelation and divine authority that the interment of the mummies and papyrus was on the order of some 3,500 years from when Smith acquired the records. I’ve also touched on this particular in my website Part II and provided multiple references to that cause. And that list is not all inclusive.

What I’m trying to get across to you, MG, is that Smith by authority of God declared the papyrus were original autographs placed on the bodies (mummies) that were left intact in their tombs for some 3,500 years! And if those papyri were left intact for 3,500 years then they could not have been Late Egyptian records or some kind of redaction from the Jews as some apologists like to imagine and if Smith was telling the truth about what God told him then the only conclusion we may infer is that the real Books of Abraham & Joseph actually fell into Smith’s hands exactly as he testified.

But, what I’m really getting at is the idea of deriving midrash from papyrus that is said to actually *BE* the books of Abraham & Joseph. You see, since God said those records were as old as Abraham and Joseph and were buried untouched after being entombed for 3,500 years, why not just actually translate the records for what they really are rather than fantasize midrash in order to conjure the original stories. Thus, *IF* the records really were the original autographs and on the order of being buried for 3,500 years then the only thing that would truly suffice is an actual translation, on the same order as translating the gold plates into the Book of Mormon.

I’m afraid the Midrash Theory clashes with Smith’s dating of the mummies and “the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed”, therefore, they remained untouched for all the time they were hid up in the tombs.
Shulem wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:55 pm
Those who are following this thread may find the link below very enlightening. It highlights Smith’s belief that the Book of Abraham (including the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3) is “Mormonism in its true light”.

“MORMONISM IN ITS TRUE LIGHT”


Now, with that said, what happens when something is enlightening? You understand it! The mystery begins to evaporate and the mind perceives things exactly how they really are. You and I have to have light in order to read the text on the page of a book. Joseph Smith had to have divine light to decipher the hieroglyphic text on Abraham’s roll. Smith told the Church that the roll was the very handiwork of Abraham although it was noted that his penmanship was not as good as the other roll written by Joseph. Nonetheless, Abraham was said to have drawn the representation of the altar at the beginning of the record and mentions that in Abraham 1:12. The same hand that penned the Book of Abraham upon papyrus also drew the altar. That same hand drew the vignette for Facsimile No. 3, to include King Pharaoh. The mummies were dated by Joseph Smith to have been on the order of 3,500 years old and the papyri were the very handiworks of Abraham & Joseph who lived prior to the interment. From that point the mummies and the papyri had not seen the light of day for 3,500 years.
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Re: Cracked Pharaoh's Name in Facsimile #3

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
Hi Shulem/Paul, I got it. I cracked it. The name is Tutmoses.

The 18th Dynasty pharaonic name of Tutmoses does not exist in the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 3, in any way, shape, or form. The writing above the head of the goddess Isis reads (ȝs.t wr.t mw.t nṯr), “Isis the great, the god’s mother.”


Image


Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
The names of the Pharoah's around that time period are:
Ahmose, Amenhotep, Thutmose

If these assumptions are right, the name would be one of these three names for the Pharaoh of the Book of Abraham.

I'm sorry, there are no 18th Dynasty pharaonic names written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3. In fact, there are no pharaonic names written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3.

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
This site shows that the name ThutMose is actually:

ḏḥwtj-ms,Tʼaḥawtī-mīsaw, meaning "Thoth is born"

One symbol for Thoth is the bread loaf, as I have documented elsewhere, but see this for example:

https://www.egyptianhieroglyphs.net/gar ... sign-list/

The representation of the god Thoth (Djehuty) is not given in Facsimile No. 3, in any way, shape, or form. The textual expression for Thoth is not given in the writing and there are no iconographic expressions of that name within the Facsimile. The fact that there is a bread loaf in the Egyptian word for “mother” as shown in Facsimile No. 3 and that there is a bread loaf in the name of “Thoth”, that is not given in Facsimile No. 3, has absolutely nothing to do with a king’s name. There is no relationship and making this kind of comparison is pseudo-Egyptology given for the sole purpose in defending Smith’s false translations. The idea of pointing out that there are bread loaves in the Facsimile and that the Egyptian god Thoth has a bread loaf in his name and therefore a 18th Dynasty pharaoh named after the god can be connected to this source is beyond ludicrous -- it’s sheer fantasy. It’s a nonstarter. It will not find any support from Egyptologists.

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
Rhodes' transliteration of the text is this:
throne-bread-egg-swallow(bird)-mouth-bread-Vulture-flag
Q1 X1 H8 G36 D21 G14 R8

None of this has anything to do with a king’s name any more than it has with the price of tea in China.

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
notice that the last 3 are mouth bread vulture
I think the mouth is a marker like a cartouche but also like a pictograph saying that something will be mouthed or pronounced here.

The mouth is not a marker for a royal Cartouche. The mouth is not used to signify a king’s name or to signify that one is about to be spoken. The mouth is a base character used in the Egyptian alphabet that signifies the phonetic letter “r”. The inscription in the Facsimile using the mouth for the word great (wr.t) employs the “r” simply as a phonetic compliment for the swallow bird (wr) that denotes a general meaning for “great”.

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
The key now is bread-vulture.

The hieroglyphic signs used in this inscription are not a key to signify a king’s name. That is wishful thinking on your part and totally unEgyptian.

Ed1 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am
Here are the Hebrew words for these signs in succession, similar to when I decoded the Shulem cryptogram:

kisseh lehem betsah deror peh lehem ozniyyah nes

putting the two together, bread and vulture, we have:
lehemozniyyah

Notice the pronunciation of this part:

lehemoz

Remember, lehem is bread, a symbol for Thoth/ḏḥwtj

In other words, a cryptogram/pun/wordplay set between Egyptian and Hebrew pronunciations:
ḏḥwtj-moz, Tutmoses

It is interesting that an egg is one of the symbols here, and that the name speaks of Thoth being born.

It looks like you’re having fun, Ed. But you must know that this little game is yours and yours alone.
Last edited by Shulem on Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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