Peterson the historical skeptic

[doubtingthomas]

I’m asking why Joseph Smith did it.

I don't know, why did the Gnostics do it?

Was he anomalous in his time/age? He surely could have gotten by with a LOT less hardship and sacrifice.

Nope. A lot of 19th century people claiming to see god or jesus made a lot of sacrifices. People who lie for god do a lot of complicated things.

Can you please explain this

"The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: Milagre do Sol), also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima, Portugal, in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lúcia Santos and Francisco and Jacinta Marto. The prophecy was that the Virgin Mary (referred to as Our Lady of Fátima), would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from witnesses who said that they had seen extraordinary solar activity, such as the Sun appearing to "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the Earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

[MG 2.0]

I’m asking why Joseph Smith did it.

I don't know, why did the Gnostics do it?

Was he anomalous in his time/age? He surely could have gotten by with a LOT less hardship and sacrifice.

Nope. A lot of 19th century people claiming to see god or jesus made a lot of sacrifices. People who lie for god do a lot of complicated things.

This may be the best we’re going to get.

Nothing against you personally. If I were in the shoes of a critic I don’t know that I would have adequate responses to the questions I’ve brought up in this thread either.

Thanks for your input.

Regards,
MG

[IHAQ]

Why did he choose the hard path?

Did he choose the hard path?

Nope, he saw religion and story telling as an easier path than working the farm with his Dad and brothers.

[MG 2.0]

Can you please explain this

"The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: Milagre do Sol), also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima, Portugal, in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lúcia Santos and Francisco and Jacinta Marto. The prophecy was that the Virgin Mary (referred to as Our Lady of Fátima), would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from witnesses who said that they had seen extraordinary solar activity, such as the Sun appearing to "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the Earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

No. But it does sound ‘other worldly’, doesn’t it?

Looks like there were purported witnesses. Do you believe these witnesses in this instance? If so, why? Was there any evidence of any sort left behind?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Did he choose the hard path?

Nope, he saw religion and story telling as an easier path than working the farm with his Dad and brothers.

That’s a possibility. Do you think that the origins of the Book of Mormon fit in with this? It’s rather interesting to think that Joseph Smith, of all the people in his day and age, was lazy enough to take this ‘easy’ (your words, not mine) path to support his slothfulness.

Thanks for your input…but I’m not convinced that this motive would have propelled him forward to endure and sacrifice the way he did in order to hold a finished/published Book of Mormon in his hands.

Another thing we might all agree on. A lesser man might have given up on this so-called “easy path”. Come hell or high water Joseph stuck with it, didn’t he?

Personally, however, I don’t see that path as having been as easy peasy as you seem to think.

Regards,
MG

[Chap]

Briefly: I see Smith as deciding to do something that would capitalise on his known talents - persuading people that he had special powers (as in the glass-looking) and constructing elaborate narrratives about an imagined American past (as reported by his family). Going that route enabled him to live well without (as I think The Lord says in D&C somewhere?) his needing to 'labour'.

That needed a big effort, but he knew he had the talent, and made the most of his chances. I don't think it was easy for him to pull it off, but it was certainly better than farm work.

[Rivendale]

No. But it does sound ‘other worldly’, doesn’t it?

Looks like there were purported witnesses. Do you believe these witnesses in this instance? If so, why? Was there any evidence of any sort left behind?

Regards,
MG

Let me state the question you should have asked. Why is the method indestiguishable from a fraud? He was fond of showing off the mummies and the papyri , even after his death they gave tours (at a cost however) to see them. He was ok showing the seer stone. But those plates couldn't be looked at. The stone box is missing. The breastplate and urim and thummim is missing. The book of Abraham and the GAEL was a complete disaster for future historians to look back and interpret. The moment someone has to obfuscate simple details is the moment you enter fantasy land. The Book of Mormon parallels aspects of Joseph's character and family dynamics. Why is that? What are the chances an ancient civilization mirrors a frontier family? And I haven't even mentioned polygamy, bank scandals, attempted murder, murders and a failed trip to Salem to find treasure. I haven't mentioned inappropriate influence on minors. Inappropriate influence on other people's marriages. All of this could have been avoided to lessen the path from hard to easy. Why did he do that?

[doubtingthomas]

Can you please explain this

"The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: Milagre do Sol), also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima, Portugal, in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lúcia Santos and Francisco and Jacinta Marto. The prophecy was that the Virgin Mary (referred to as Our Lady of Fátima), would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from witnesses who said that they had seen extraordinary solar activity, such as the Sun appearing to "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the Earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

No. But it does sound ‘other worldly’, doesn’t it?

Looks like there were purported witnesses. Do you believe these witnesses in this instance? If so, why? Was there any evidence of any sort left behind?

Regards,
MG

I do. Why should I be skeptical? Do you believe the witnesses were lying?

[doubtingthomas]

Nothing against you personally. If I were in the shoes of a critic I don’t know that I would have adequate responses to the questions I’ve brought up in this thread either.

I am not a critic. I did answer your questions. Go back and read them.

[MG 2.0]

Briefly: I see Smith as deciding to do something that would capitalise on his known talents - persuading people that he had special powers (as in the glass-looking) and constructing elaborate narrratives about an imagined American past (as reported by his family). Going that route enabled him to live well without (as I think The Lord says in D&C somewhere?) his needing to 'labour'.

That needed a big effort, but he knew he had the talent, and made the most of his chances. I don't think it was easy for him to pull it off, but it was certainly better than farm work.

It’s debatable as to whether or not Joseph would have agreed with your assessment of “living well” as he constantly underwent threats to his life, libelous lawsuits, and while he sat (because he couldn’t stand) in the Liberty Jail. And that’s just a snapshot of the trials Joseph endured during a life that was cut short as the result of mob action.

He would have been MUCH better off without the Book of Mormon one might think. That is, in regards to all that transpired AFTER its publication. But the fact is, he did sacrifice much and endure hardship to get the Book of Mormon published. I suppose one can argue about the true purpose/reason for having done such until the cows come home.

Regards,
MG