Peterson the historical skeptic

[Rivendale]

The inner Bednar came out apologies.

I didn’t mean to offend you. But I did see a deflection there. No apology necessary.

Regards,
MG

But you didn't answer my questions. I didn't choose to be offended. No deflection, it coincides with the original statement from you. Why did Joseph pick the hard path?

[MG 2.0]

I didn’t mean to offend you. But I did see a deflection there. No apology necessary.

Regards,
MG

Why did Joseph pick the hard path?

That’s exactly what I’m asking. And can examples be given of others at that time went to the same amount of effort and sacrifice to publish a ‘book of fiction’.

On top of what I’ve already mentioned previously, we have Joseph…while Emma (I think he stayed with her a couple of weeks) and was still recuperating from a miscarriage…going on a trip ( he didn’t just hop in a car) to the Harris's to find out what had happened with Martin Harris, his wife, and the 116 lost pages. I mean, wow people, Joseph did a lot of stuff that surely wasn’t taking the easy path to get the Book of Mormon published.

You’d almost have to be intentionally blind to not see it.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

It can be argued that “civil society” was not always present at these instances/times. But that’s another discussion.

Any answers or ‘deep dives’ in regards to the original questions I posed in this thread?

Regards,
MG

That’s retarded. Stop being an oaf. Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids and other men’s wives tend to land you in hot water.

- Doc

This has absolutely nothing to do with the points I’m making and the questions I’m asking.

Retarded? Oafish? Look in the mirror bud. Sorry to throw it right back at you, but my gosh you have a one track…or should I say trick…mind and a severe/advanced case of tunnel vision.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

You’d almost have to be intentionally blind to not see it.

Regards,
MG

I'm sure you can see why people disagree. It's easy to see how Joseph was allergic to honest work. Taking men out on treasure hunts, selling books of fiction as history, running an illegal bank, borrowing money from credulous neighbors, sleeping with other men's wives... the "hard work" he put in throughout his life was all about taking advantage of the gullible.

[malkie]

He certainly did his best to convince people that he had become possessed of an ancient text and had acquired the power to translate it by miraculous means. And he succeeded in so doing, in large enough measure to gather a following around himself that eventually yielded power and riches that he could never have acquired by other means, starting from where he did. And all those young women too, of course.

Very little of the church’s early success had a direct correlation with the ‘ancientness’ of the Book of Mormon.

You didn’t answer my primary series of questions though.

They seem to be the kinds of questions critics seem to ignore.

Joseph engaged in ‘overkill’ for something that may not have required it. Others didn’t go to all that effort.

Why did he choose the hard path?

Regards,
MG

Since we cannot know why Joseph did what he did, unless we choose to believe whatever he may have said about his reasons, I'll take a shot at answering from my own experience of living and doing. No specific details are required, because what I propose is a general answer that I believe will cover most if not all of the cases of "why did X choose to do Y".

I believe that Joseph did what he thought was needed in order to achieve the goals he had in mind. Again, we can check if he said anything about his goals, and choose to believe or not. You state, apparently confidently, that "Joseph engaged in ‘overkill’ for something that may not have required it." However, that is your judgement with the benefit of hindsight.

Perhaps he expected and hoped that things would turn out differently, but each time that he ran into difficulties he once again did what he thought needed to be done.

As far as I know, this is how many people proceed through life. If people tell us their reasons for what they do, we can choose to believe them or not. Why should Joseph be any different?

[MG 2.0]

You’d almost have to be intentionally blind to not see it.

Regards,
MG

I'm sure you can see why people disagree. It's easy to see how Joseph was allergic to honest work. Taking men out on treasure hunts, selling books of fiction as history, running an illegal bank, borrowing money from credulous neighbors, sleeping with other men's wives... the "hard work" he put in throughout his life was all about taking advantage of the gullible.

If these are the examples you’re going to use to try and make some point(?) in regards to the questions I’ve asked or not answering them, then no, I don’t see why people “disagree”.

I do see some one track (trick) minds looking ahead…backwards(?)… with tunnel vision.

In my experience, the sacrifice/work Joseph went through to publish the Book of Mormon and his motivations for doing so seem to be an area of discussion that usually ends with a ‘no show’, or comments like “Joseph was a lazy farmboy so he concocted a book scheme to get rich”, and the like.

Regards,
MG

[doubtingthomas]

I’ve read about and watched a number of documentaries having to do with this particular example and others that seem to have ‘other worldly’ components.

Really? How do you explain Mother Ann?

"On this day in 1841, the Shakers in Harvard reported a spiritual visit by their long-dead founder Mother Ann, "Holy Angels," and "ancient Saints and departed spirits." Shaker communities across New England were receiving such strange manifestations, called "Mother Ann's Work." This brief period of intense spiritualism peaked in the early 1840s, as Shakers reported spiritual visits from prophets, Indians, and historical figures such as Napoleon and Washington."
https://www.massmoments.org/moment-deta ... visit.html

Or how do you explain meditation-induced light experiences?

"The reports of light experiences are classified into two main types: discrete lightforms and patterned or diffuse lights. Similar phenomena are well documented in traditional Buddhist texts"
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2017-42919-001

[drumdude]

I'm sure you can see why people disagree. It's easy to see how Joseph was allergic to honest work. Taking men out on treasure hunts, selling books of fiction as history, running an illegal bank, borrowing money from credulous neighbors, sleeping with other men's wives... the "hard work" he put in throughout his life was all about taking advantage of the gullible.

If these are the examples you’re going to use to try and make some point(?) in regards to the questions I’ve asked or not answering them, then no, I don’t see why people “disagree”.

I do see some one track (trick) minds looking ahead…backwards(?)… with tunnel vision.

In my experience, the sacrifice/work Joseph went through to publish the Book of Mormon and his motivations for doing so seem to be an area of discussion that usually ends with a ‘no show’, or comments like “Joseph was a lazy farmboy so he concocted a book scheme to get rich”, and the like.

Regards,
MG

Do you deny he spent years before writing the Book of Mormon telling his family the exact same type of stories?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

That’s retarded. Stop being an oaf. Scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids and other men’s wives tend to land you in hot water.

- Doc

This has absolutely nothing to do with the points I’m making and the questions I’m asking.

Retarded? Oafish? Look in the mirror bud. Sorry to throw it right back at you, but my gosh you have a one track…or should I say trick…mind and a severe/advanced case of tunnel vision.

Regards,
MG

You donkey. You brought up Joseph Smith’s oPpReSiOn or “trials” in response to Chap pointing out that being a grifter was easier work than farming. I simply pointed out that his self-inflicted gunshot wounds and their fallout were natural results from his behavior. You, of course, can’t separate your thick skull from your asshole so you blithely suggested scrying, bank fraud, and ****ing kids and other men’s wives was a societal problem with regard to to how it reacted to him, and not a result from Joseph Smith’s degenerate character problem.

Just ****ing braindead.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

I believe that Joseph did what he thought was needed in order to achieve the goals he had in mind. Again, we can check if he said anything about his goals, and choose to believe or not.

His goals seem to be righteous if not godly:

Joseph declared that “a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

“By the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics, the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation” (History of the Church, 6:74).

“Great opposition and much persecution followed the believers of [the Book of Mormon’s] authenticity; but it had now come to pass that truth had sprung out of the earth; and righteousness had looked down from heaven—so we feared not our opponents, knowing that we had both truth and righteousness on our side; that we had both the Father and the Son, because we had the doctrines of Christ, and abided in them” (Times and Seasons, Dec. 1, 1842, 22).

“I did translate the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, and it is before the world, and all the powers of earth and hell can never rob me of the honour of it” (quoted in James Palmer, Journal, 75, Church History Library, Salt Lake City; capitalization modernized).

I agree with you. We can choose to believe or not.

By the way, goals and motivations such as the ones just quoted would be enough reason, in my book, to go through all of that which he did in the bring forth of the Book of Mormon.

Laziness and a simple get rich scheme?

Not according to his words and possibly even more importantly, his actions. Some of those which I’ve mentioned or linked to.

Regards,
MG