Peterson the historical skeptic

[doubtingthomas]

Bottom line, show me some evidence that the Nephites were in the Americas and then we can talk about how hard it was for Joseph Smith to dictate and publish the Book of Mormon. Until that is shown, all of the other supposed proofs you raise are without a proper foundation. We know of the Romans, the ancient Greeks, etc., from the same time period. However, no evidence that the israelites were in the new world starting in 600 BC.

MG believes horses were tapirs.

[dantana]

I think Joseph Smith made up the Moroni/Nephi angel story, just like he made up having plates, just like he made up the other heavenly appearances he claimed to have had. So, they never talked.

Bottom line, show me some evidence that the Nephites were in the Americas and then we can talk about how hard it was for Joseph Smith to dictate and publish the Book of Mormon. Until that is shown, all of the other supposed proofs you raise are without a proper foundation. We know of the Romans, the ancient Greeks, etc., from the same time period. However, no evidence that the israelites were in the new world starting in 600 BC.

Right. I'm with you. I'm going to need a little more evidence than the age old game of - I talked to god last night, and he told me to tell you...

[malkie]

I believe that Joseph did what he thought was needed in order to achieve the goals he had in mind. Again, we can check if he said anything about his goals, and choose to believe or not.

His goals seem to be righteous if not godly:

Joseph declared that “a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

“By the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics, the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation” (History of the Church, 6:74).

“Great opposition and much persecution followed the believers of [the Book of Mormon’s] authenticity; but it had now come to pass that truth had sprung out of the earth; and righteousness had looked down from heaven—so we feared not our opponents, knowing that we had both truth and righteousness on our side; that we had both the Father and the Son, because we had the doctrines of Christ, and abided in them” (Times and Seasons, Dec. 1, 1842, 22).

“I did translate the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, and it is before the world, and all the powers of earth and hell can never rob me of the honour of it” (quoted in James Palmer, Journal, 75, Church History Library, Salt Lake City; capitalization modernized).

I agree with you. We can choose to believe or not.

By the way, goals and motivations such as the ones just quoted would be enough reason, in my book, to go through all of that which he did in the bring forth of the Book of Mormon.

Laziness and a simple get rich scheme?

Not according to his words and possibly even more importantly, his actions. Some of those which I’ve mentioned or linked to.

Regards,
MG

His early history of money digging, treasure hunting, scrying, etc. leads me to believe that he could tell a good story, and convince people of his abilities. Do you believe that he could see treasures in the ground that was "slippery", and was guarded by malevolent spirits?

Throughout his life he continued to play to his strength, and to make it up as he went along.

Just as many other religious leaders have done and continue to do - some more successfully than others.

He got something out of his efforts, though not, perhaps, as much as he had hoped.

If he were to start today, instead of 200 years ago, I suspect he would likely be on TV asking people to send him money for his private jet.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

William Davis' book is an excellent resource for understanding the way Smith used his talent for oral story telling. I think Smith went with his skills; he was charismatic and a mesmerizing storyteller. Using that to get out of old-fashioned hard work seems like a decision someone like him would make pretty easily, especially after reading about his efforts to get money out of people earlier in his life.

https://www.mrm.org/attempt-to-sell-copyright <- scroll down for eye witness accounts of Joseph Smith attempting to sell the Book of Mormon’s copyright for gain

Account after account places Joseph Smith’s motivations being primarily based in the desire to get money. Obviously his motivations evolved over time to get more money, and then later to get even more money in addition to getting money. And let’s not forget his penchant for the LAY-DEEZ. I’m sure at some point he started to turn into a pious fraud, but that’s putting the grifter before the cart.

- Doc

[canpakes]

Why did Joseph pick the hard path?

That’s exactly what I’m asking. And can examples be given of others at that time went to the same amount of effort and sacrifice to publish a ‘book of fiction’.

On top of what I’ve already mentioned previously, we have Joseph…while Emma (I think he stayed with her a couple of weeks) and was still recuperating from a miscarriage…going on a trip ( he didn’t just hop in a car) to the Harris's to find out what had happened with Martin Harris, his wife, and the 116 lost pages. I mean, wow people, Joseph did a lot of stuff that surely wasn’t taking the easy path to get the Book of Mormon published.

You’d almost have to be intentionally blind to not see it.

Regards,
MG

I’m not so sure that crafting a book of supposed ancient scripture is necessarily the hardest route one could take in making a living during that day, especially if doing so convinces a small population of individuals to believe that story, then consider the author as a prophet (because the book said so, right?), and then work on providing that prophet with some amount of protection and support.

You could say - if done correctly - that this could be a pretty sweet deal. Certainly easier than working the fields day in and day out, yes?

As example, was this a commandment to construct a so-called ‘guest house’ in Nauvoo that would also conveniently house Smith and his family for subsequent generations, or am I misinterpreting D&C 124? -

56. And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding house which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation.

57. For this anointing have I put upon his head, that his blessing shall also be put upon the head of his posterity after him.

58. And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.

59. Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.

[canpakes]

The Book of Mormon doesn’t succeed in being realistic, but it seems to be trying too hard. Noah doesn’t need tools to build his ark. Nephi has a bellows made of animal skins, iron ore accessible from the surface, and a fire that he makes by banging two rocks. As an account of ancient ship-building it’s still ludicrous but it’s also way too much detail. If Nephi smelted iron to forge tools then telling us how he banged rocks is like a modern contractor mentioning that he turned on his power saw.

Similarly, this sort of strangeness starts right on page 1, with the second sentence of the Book -

“Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.”

Why would the author tell the reader of his text what language he was reading?

[Moksha]

MG believes horses were tapirs.

Not all tapirs are horses, only those who have been feeling their oats and answering the call of the gospel. Just ask Dr. Peterson and he will bear his testimony on this point.

[MG 2.0]

No. And I also don’t deny that these ‘stories’ may have come to him as a result of his periodic interviews/conversations with Moroni or other heavenly visitors. We do have record of Moroni visiting Joseph.

What do you think they may have talked about?

The weather?

Regards,
MG

I think Joseph Smith made up the Moroni/Nephi angel story, just like he made up having plates, just like he made up the other heavenly appearances he claimed to have had. So, they never talked.

Bottom line, show me some evidence that the Nephites were in the Americas and then we can talk about how hard it was for Joseph Smith to dictate and publish the Book of Mormon. Until that is shown, all of the other supposed proofs you raise are without a proper foundation. We know of the Romans, the ancient Greeks, etc., from the same time period. However, no evidence that the israelites were in the new world starting in 600 BC.

I don’t think that it’s a necessity to find Zarahemla before attempting to address the concerns/questions I’ve raised. In fact, knowing that Joseph put his heart and soul into the Book of Mormon translation and all that this entails seems to demonstrate, again, the sincerity in which he approached those things that he believed were commanded of God.

He sure seemed to think so, unless he was lying to God’s face, so to speak. But that doesn’t fit the narrative of a young man looking for truth and forgiveness. To then lie before his maker about Book of Mormon origins? Wow.

Protecting the plates. Moving the plates. Witnesses. etc. A lot of work, a lot of sacrifice to get to the final product. And that’s not including the efforts that went into producing an ‘ancient artifact’ with Hebraisms and complexity in the narrative. Quite the thing for a lazy farmboy as some would like to portray.

And for Joseph to leave Emma after a miscarriage to go check on Martin and the manuscript knowing that he was leaving a wife that was not completely well yet. Why would he do that unless he REALLY believed that he was truly accountable to God?

I think all of this does impact the way one might view the Book of Mormon and what it purports to be.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

One of the first New Mormon History books I read WAY back when. Back when we called it NMH. Not sure if that’s the ‘go to’ terminology anymore.

I see lying is still firmly in your wheelhouse.

- Doc

I read it. Probably before you did.

Regards,
MG

[canpakes]

And for Joseph to leave Emma after a miscarriage to go check on Martin and the manuscript knowing that he was leaving a wife that was not completely well yet. Why would he do that unless he REALLY believed that he was truly accountable to God?

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but this argument can just as easily support the idea that he ‘REALLY believed’ that he was not accountable to God.