Church membership numbers not good.

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MG 2.0
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:00 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:46 pm


If you don’t believe in the eternal nature and progression of man/women I can see why you might have a fatalistic view.

Regards,
MG
Believing in God is espousing a fatalistic point of view--it's determined mankind will die out when God decides, no? And you, as a believer, expressed hope for that impending destruction.

Three other notes of interest (perhaps).

1. You, perhaps without realizing it, compared man in the singular vs women in the plural--perhaps a sign of your hope for future polygamy. Sounds fatalistic, actually.

2. If there was a sensible reason to believe the "eternal nature and progression of man/women" you'd have some sort of point. But there is no reason other than a selfish hope, or what I'd characterize as a selfish hope. And that's, of course, a bad reason.

3. Since your theology suggests many if not most of humanity will not have eternal progression, then the progression is for but a few, relatively speaking. You may delight in the hope you'll have aplenty while most are left wanting, but that which you hope for sounds like a different kind of hell for me
Simple response? Wrong on all counts.

Do I wish/hope for the destruction of the world through the intervention of God? Watching my children and grandchildren perish?

Of course not.

Honestly, your 1-3 don’t even deserve a response. We’re now getting into a pronoun usage issue? Sheesh. If you want me to edit “man” to “men” I’d be happy to. Let me know.

Why am I not surprised you’d focus on that which is superfluous to what I’m actually saying? 😉

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by Marcus »

Chap wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:34 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:26 pm
Throughout history the majority of folks have either ignored or rebelled against the fullness of the gospel. Sadly, this is also true even in our day and time.
If everybody was Mormon, the world would be wonderful. But they are not, so it isn't.
:) well, they would say it’s wonderful, but you know how Mormons are about changing the meanings of words when history disagrees with their accounts…
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:26 pm
Everything is hunky dory and we’re doing an awesome job solving humanities problems on our own without God, aren’t we?
In US politics, I have not noticed that your local deity is exactly excluded from the political process.

Nor have I noticed that when nations have been most religious, they have been at their happiest and most peaceful. In fact to some extent the reverse has been true, has it not?
Yes.
MG 2.0
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:04 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:58 pm


When and if that progress comes to an abrupt halt for one reason or another…then what?

I think your overconfidence in mankind as a whole is misplaced. Especially as more and more people are turning away from God and leaning to their own understanding and precepts.

Again, when and if the system (that has cradled you up to this point) crashes, who/what are YOU going to rely on then?

Wishful thinking in the overall progress and goodness of mankind? 😉

Regards,
MG
More fatalistic mumbo jumbo, MG. You can't assume we just lose all our findings and progress simply because you hope for an end to humanity. I mean of course you can assume as much, but you can't possibly think I'll just buy your depressing hopes. Particularly since every time I've asked you for a good reason for your beliefs, you come back with absolutely nothing that could be thought of as good reason.

Relying on God only gets people in trouble, it seems to me. I may be overstating it since I can't account for everyone's belief, but you know...its the best I can manage.
To each his or her…or they’re…own.

I’ll take my path of relying on God through a prophet as I move along in this world. You, of course, are free to move along on your godless path to see where it gets you.

If times get tough, I hope you are able to weather whatever storm my come your way without a faith in God. In times of prosperity and ease it’s fun to sit around and have the leisure of typing words onto a computer, isn’t it? You can do that with or without God. 😉

In my opinion you have given away your birthright. Be that as it may, I wish you well on the path you have chosen to live without God in the world and thinking that everything will remain as it has.

You are the beneficiary and offspring of those that have lived within the influences of the Judaeo-Christian faith in an all powerful creator. Within one or two generations, however, things can change drastically.

For now, carry on with your hopeful belief in the overall goodness and humanity of your neighbor next door.

I’m grateful for continued guidance through modern day prophets and the righteousness demonstrated through the lives of those that chose to obey God’s law and walk in obedience to his commandments.

The woke ideologies are a danger/menace to our Judaeo-Christian way of life. You see that as a positive, I see that as a negative.

And so it is.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:25 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:04 pm


More fatalistic mumbo jumbo, MG. You can't assume we just lose all our findings and progress simply because you hope for an end to humanity. I mean of course you can assume as much, but you can't possibly think I'll just buy your depressing hopes. Particularly since every time I've asked you for a good reason for your beliefs, you come back with absolutely nothing that could be thought of as good reason.

Relying on God only gets people in trouble, it seems to me. I may be overstating it since I can't account for everyone's belief, but you know...its the best I can manage.
To each his or her…or they’re…own.

I’ll take my path of relying on God through a prophet as I move along in this world. You, of course, are free to move along on your godless path to see where it gets you.

If times get tough, I hope you are able to weather whatever storm my come your way without a faith in God. In times of prosperity and ease it’s fun to sit around and have the leisure of typing words onto a computer, isn’t it? You can do that with or without God. 😉

In my opinion you have given away your birthright. Be that as it may, I wish you well on the path you have chosen to live without God in the world and thinking that everything will remain as it has.

You are the beneficiary and offspring of those that have lived within the influences of the Judaeo-Christian faith in an all powerful creator. Within one or two generations, however, things can change drastically.

For now, carry on with your hopeful belief in the overall goodness and humanity of your neighbor next door.

I’m grateful for continued guidance through modern day prophets and the righteousness demonstrated through the lives of those that chose to obey God’s law and walk in obedience to his commandments.

The woke ideologies are a danger/menace to our Judaeo-Christian way of life. You see that as a positive, I see that as a negative.

And so it is.

Regards,
MG
:lol: Now that’s a shaking-the-dust-off-your-feet threat, straight up.

(Although how did “woke ideologies” get in there? Are you going DezNat on us, mentalG? :twisted: )
dastardly stem
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:09 pm

Simple response? Wrong on all counts.

Do I wish/hope for the destruction of the world through the intervention of God? Watching my children and grandchildren perish?

Of course not.

Honestly, your 1-3 don’t even deserve a response. We’re now getting into a pronoun usage issue? Sheesh. If you want me to edit “man” to “men” I’d be happy to. Let me know.

Why am I not surprised you’d focus on that which is superfluous to what I’m actually saying? 😉

Regards,
MG
Wait a second...I'm not trying to be argumentative for argumentative's sake, but how are any of my 3 points wrong, as you put it? Are you saying there is no eternal polygamy in Mormonism? I mean to put it more plainly, do you really think Mormonism has never taught that men will/can have more than one wife if they get exalted? I get you can feel justified in rejecting that notion, if you like, but certainly you must admit Mormonism has at times taught such a thing, no?

If I am wrong about point 2 all it'd take to demonstrate it is to actually provide a good reason. I'll seriously drop the idea if you provide a good reason to believe there is "eternal nature and progression of man/women". If your reasons fall short of sufficient reason for the claim, then my point is justified and is not wrong.

Also, you seem to be denying that Mormonism teaches or has ever taught that those who do not achieve exaltation (traditionally been consider few are chosen--meaning many more are not) will find an end to progress? If so, on what grounds do you deny that?

I get we're just going to disagree with how we choose to frame it, or we may disagree about the particulars on what something might mean, but you seem to be dismissing ideas simply because you don't want to hear them. Let's try and hear each other out.

What have I said that demonstrates I've missed anything you've said?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:25 pm


To each his or her…or they’re…own.

I’ll take my path of relying on God through a prophet as I move along in this world. You, of course, are free to move along on your godless path to see where it gets you.

If times get tough, I hope you are able to weather whatever storm my come your way without a faith in God. In times of prosperity and ease it’s fun to sit around and have the leisure of typing words onto a computer, isn’t it? You can do that with or without God. 😉

In my opinion you have given away your birthright. Be that as it may, I wish you well on the path you have chosen to live without God in the world and thinking that everything will remain as it has.

You are the beneficiary and offspring of those that have lived within the influences of the Judaeo-Christian faith in an all powerful creator. Within one or two generations, however, things can change drastically.

For now, carry on with your hopeful belief in the overall goodness and humanity of your neighbor next door.

I’m grateful for continued guidance through modern day prophets and the righteousness demonstrated through the lives of those that chose to obey God’s law and walk in obedience to his commandments.

The woke ideologies are a danger/menace to our Judaeo-Christian way of life. You see that as a positive, I see that as a negative.

And so it is.

Regards,
MG
I'm with Marcus, where'd this "woke" stuff come from? I have no idea what you're going on about if that's what you comparing Judaeo-Christian ways of life to.

What do you think I'm missing if I don't have God in my life? Why do you assume I've not experienced storms? I get it's frustrating to have your beliefs challenged, and I am willing to move past this...but really, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

"You are the beneficiary and offspring of those that have lived within the influences of the Judaeo-Christian faith in an all powerful creator. Within one or two generations, however, things can change drastically."

I don't think I'm being clear of the problem with religion. Granted, most people before me, in the western tradition, and many people around me are believers. And yes, they have influenced me greatly. I don't think it's necessarily their religion that's done it. they've been good despite their religion.

If your biggest criticism of anything I've said is I put too much trust in other people around me, I'll take it. I enjoy the goodness and humanity of my neighbors and don't think that a bad thing. If they bite me once in a while in spite of my treating them well, then I'll take the lumps, I guess.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
huckelberry
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by huckelberry »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:25 pm

I’ll take my path of relying on God through a prophet as I move along in this world. You, of course, are free to move along on your godless path to see where it gets you.


The woke ideologies are a danger/menace to our Judaeo-Christian way of life. You see that as a positive, I see that as a negative.
MG
Not all of the traditional Judaeo-Christian way of life is really the way God wants us to live. I think the basic ideas of woke are moves aimed to make life closer to the way God wants us to live. Women should be supported in their effort to reject and be protected from sexual manipulation by bosses and powerful men. Womens career success should be respected. The racial problems in America should be recognized and continued effort made to relieve the problems.

I do not see how these woke things should be a menace unless ones views Gods expectations of us as a menace.
MG 2.0
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:00 pm


Believing in God is espousing a fatalistic point of view--it's determined mankind will die out when God decides, no? And you, as a believer, expressed hope for that impending destruction.
No.
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:00 pm

Three other notes of interest (perhaps).

1. You, perhaps without realizing it, compared man in the singular vs women in the plural--perhaps a sign of your hope for future polygamy. Sounds fatalistic, actually.
No intentional meaning there. No hope for future polygamy. No fatalism.
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:00 pm
2. If there was a sensible reason to believe the "eternal nature and progression of man/women" you'd have some sort of point. But there is no reason other than a selfish hope, or what I'd characterize as a selfish hope. And that's, of course, a bad reason.
No selfish hope on my part except I the hope of a life after death and progression and happiness. What that will entail in detail, I don’t know. I have a hope it will include family and those I love.
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:00 pm
3. Since your theology suggests many if not most of humanity will not have eternal progression, then the progression is for but a few, relatively speaking. You may delight in the hope you'll have aplenty while most are left wanting, but that which you hope for sounds like a different kind of hell for me
I think everyone, almost everyone, will have opportunity to progress and find joy.

I don’t find your three points brought up ‘out of the blue’ to be relevant to the conversation. They are, all three, focused on negativity and incomplete understanding of the afterlife for all of God’s children.

So I answered in the negative on all counts.

I just didn’t find this ‘out of the blue’ line of points/questions…germane/useful…in regards to what I was saying. You wanted to ‘go there’, I didn’t see any point.

A sidetrack.

They weren’t points of interest to me. Thus, the short attention span I originally gave them. 🙂

Simply, I disagree that belief in God results in a life and/or future life of fatalism or selfish negativism. Judgement of some kind?

Yes.

A loving God will…and has…designed a plan for happiness, not fatalism. We will all be and get what we want/deserve.

You’ve forgotten your Book of Mormon. 😉

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:58 pm

I don't think I'm being clear of the problem with religion. Granted, most people before me, in the western tradition, and many people around me are believers. And yes, they have influenced me greatly. I don't think it's necessarily their religion that's done it. they've been good despite their religion.
On the whole, I would simply disagree. Unless they’re practicing Satanists or the like. :evil:
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:58 pm
If your biggest criticism of anything I've said is I put too much trust in other people around me, I'll take it. I enjoy the goodness and humanity of my neighbors and don't think that a bad thing. If they bite me once in a while in spite of my treating them well, then I'll take the lumps, I guess.
I’m speaking of the state of society and the world as a whole.

If you have good neighbors then cool. If things go to hell in a hand basket you can invite them over to share your food storage, right? 😄

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Church membership numbers not good.

Post by MG 2.0 »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:20 pm
Women should be supported in their effort to reject and be protected from sexual manipulation by bosses and powerful men. Womens career success should be respected. The racial problems in America should be recognized and continued effort made to relieve the problems.
Agreed.

Image

Do you see any one or more of the labels of organizations/institutions/groups in this picture as being part of ‘wokeness’? Besides Liberty, of course. 🙂

If not, we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

By the way, in reference to the ‘Democratic Party’ label, I’m referring to today’s Democratic Party, not the party of Tip O’Neill that we grew up with.

This thread is going way off track. Some have already complained. I think I’m going to move out and let it go back to its original flow unless I’m forced to come back in here.

Ha ha.

Regards,
MG
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