Taken in sequence. She sat down, then a kind woman joined her. I see why you are confused, but simple narratives like this often unfold in a linear sequence of action.Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 amSo, which is it? Did she sit alone, or did she sit near a kind woman? It can't be both.I sat alone in the pew during an Ash Wednesday service at a Catholic church in southern Utah. A kind woman sat near me, and we talked after the service concluded.
Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
It doesn’t even have to be that. At my parish, there is a daily 7 am mass, many individuals attend by themselves, although this commonly happens at other mass times as well. They sit down alone, and when others enter, they also sit alone, but near the others. There is interaction during a mass (walking up for communion, exchanging sign of peace) that has been interrupted by Covid, but there are still plenty of times when you can sit alone, but still be near others who care. Even as a nonbeliever, I find it to be an extraordinarily peaceful and reflective time. It was quite a surprise to find this, after experiencing decades of pretty chaotic lds church services.Kishkumen wrote:Taken in sequence. She sat down, then a kind woman joined her. I see why you are confused, but simple narratives like this often unfold in a linear sequence of action.Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 am
So, which is it? Did she sit alone, or did she sit near a kind woman? It can't be both.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
Seariac:
Looking forward to the day when she can say the same for atheists. "by stepping outside the boundaries of my chosen church"....I realized how foolish religious observance is. And if we truly want to find unity we need to drop silly sounding un-reasonable belief and devotion.At another service, a priest spoke about how sacrificing our will to God’s means that we have to forsake contention in favor of cultivating unity. He read from Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son: “While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him.”
Then the priest quietly said to the congregation: “Go and do likewise.”
It was a holy moment, one of many I experienced during my observance of Lent. Not only was my faith strengthened, but I made genuine friendships by stepping outside the boundaries of my chosen church to worship with the broader Christian community. I was reminded that our deeply held beliefs are often more similar than we think.
The last verse of “He is Risen!” has been the hymn in my heart this season: “He is risen! He is risen! He hath opened heaven’s gate. We are free from sin’s dark prison, Risen to a holier state. And a brighter Easter beam, On our longing eyes shall stream.”
So worship is self exalting? I thought so...this whole time I knew it. She let the cat out of the bag again. I wonder what'd be like to be so much greater than the rest of us can imagine. Is that why God is so undefinable? It's all just one's mind trying to imagine themselves as perfect ones, whatever that might mean?If the dawn has yet to break in your own life and you are in your personal Gethsemane, I can share from personal experience that after the grief of Lent, the Son rises, and aided by the solemn practices of Lent, many of his followers have risen to a holier state. It is, I believe, six weeks well spent, with transformations greater than you might imagine.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
Indeed. I really don't like LDS services at all. I much prefer the more contemplative atmosphere of a liturgical service.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
It’s interesting that Seariac has articulated finding deeper personal spiritual satisfaction in the services and ordinances of a religion outside of Mormonism. Peterson has hinted similarly when he explained how he acted a Seder.malkie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:54 pmIn my little branch in Scotland, it was almost a tradition to go to Midnight Mass at Christmas, even for people who had not been Catholic before they joined the LDS church.
I never thought about it at the time, but I can feel some degree of truth in what IHAQ says.
Are these apologists subtly having a dig at their own Church? Are they semi apostate? Are they dissatisfied with their own religion and want more than it gives? It certainly seems to be the case for Seariac.
And perhaps the bigger question - are they right? Is greater spiritual satisfaction for Mormons found outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in other Christian centred faiths? And if so, what is to be concluded about the veracity of the Church’s claims to being the only source of whole spiritual truth?
Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
Yes. This more than anything else explains the drain on the membership: most people do not find satisfaction in the practice of Mormonism. It used to offer community, at least, but now it just asks you to donate your time and labor ("no more dances, plays, camping, and communal meals, guys, because of insurance, sorry, but please make sure to clean the restrooms and vacuum the halls!")
It has no bearing on the truth claim. Something can be true and also be miserable in its consequences This has been a major theme for me on this board, and Seariac's inability fully to leave her Catholicism behind is indicative of it. The endless "I know it's true" and "only true church" stuff was always part of Mormonism but it has served as a crutch for thirty years now: "yeah, we may have really boring church services and we don't have fun like we used to, and you can't do funerals the way you want, and you have to pay us money and time, and we talk to you like children, but you know what? None of that matters because we are the only officially approved church of god, so take your complaints up with him."
When people investigate the truth claims, they find them hard to swallow, and once that crutch is gone, they bail, absent other motivations to stay. The Church leadership is propped up by this crutch, so they have little incentive to develop a true pastoral care beyond brochures, online "resources," and 1-800 numbers that local volunteers (bishops) can direct you to. Some of its loyal intellegentsia wannabes, the apologist types, lean heavily on this crutch, too, and they know it. That is why they spend their energies trying to fortify it, so that they have no motivation to develop a substantive intellectual tradition that the wider membership could benefit from even in a diluted form (they came close with Nibley but nobody really picked up on this part of his work and instead went the easy stuff like finding Hebrew in Uto-Aztecan). The Maxwell Institute intelligentsia wannabes, on the other hand, are midwit sentimentalists who really just care about remaking the Church into an institution dedicated to their true object of worship—progressive politics and social attitudes—so they too have no motivation to develop anything that can be of any value to a person who doesn't care about those social attitudes and politics or rejects them. The result: ordinary people who get nothing from the ruling class and nothing from their auxiliaries, the scribal class, look elsewhere to address the irrational urges that religion is meant to satisfy. So few religious institutions can do that anymore, least of all the LDS Church. If the Church had a communal experience that could attract people's loyalties and devotion (a liturgy, or even a damn road show once in a while), if that were supported by a humbler pastoral apparatus or at least a genuine one, and if there were a richer storehouse of intellectual offerings, probably a lot fewer would care about, e.g., the Book of Abraham. There is literally nothing significant about the Book of Abraham in 2022 that wasn't already known and accessible to someone in 1922. The New York Times and the Salt Lake Tribune had much to say on the topic and were freely available to Mormons a century ago and in wide circulation. What is different a century later is the relationship that people had with the Church and it with them. The problem is that none of these things may be possible for Mormonism without it becoming a more traditionally Christian religion and losing its distinct identity—and that's just looking internally.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
None of us wanted to become Catholics, or return to Catholicism, as far as I know.IHAQ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:16 amIt’s interesting that Seariac has articulated finding deeper personal spiritual satisfaction in the services and ordinances of a religion outside of Mormonism. Peterson has hinted similarly when he explained how he acted a Seder.malkie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:54 pmIn my little branch in Scotland, it was almost a tradition to go to Midnight Mass at Christmas, even for people who had not been Catholic before they joined the LDS church.
I never thought about it at the time, but I can feel some degree of truth in what IHAQ says.
Are these apologists subtly having a dig at their own Church? Are they semi apostate? Are they dissatisfied with their own religion and want more than it gives? It certainly seems to be the case for Seariac.
And perhaps the bigger question - are they right? Is greater spiritual satisfaction for Mormons found outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in other Christian centred faiths? And if so, what is to be concluded about the veracity of the Church’s claims to being the only source of whole spiritual truth?
But we found in the Mass something that resonated on some level that we did not experience in our own services.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
IHAQ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:16 amIt’s interesting that Seariac has articulated finding deeper personal spiritual satisfaction in the services and ordinances of a religion outside of Mormonism. Peterson has hinted similarly when he explained how he acted a Seder.malkie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:54 pmIn my little branch in Scotland, it was almost a tradition to go to Midnight Mass at Christmas, even for people who had not been Catholic before they joined the LDS church.
I never thought about it at the time, but I can feel some degree of truth in what IHAQ says.
Are these apologists subtly having a dig at their own Church? Are they semi apostate? Are they dissatisfied with their own religion and want more than it gives? It certainly seems to be the case for Seariac.
And perhaps the bigger question - are they right? Is greater spiritual satisfaction for Mormons found outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in other Christian centred faiths? And if so, what is to be concluded about the veracity of the Church’s claims to being the only source of whole spiritual truth?
Peterson has long been on the record that LDS church services are incredibly boring.
DP wrote:Some of our manuals I think are not very good. They’re not very deep. I understand the danger. I think if you allow people to simply go wild, you’ll get some really weird Gospel Doctrine classes out there with people grinding their own axes and having little hobbies, teaching false doctrine, and so I understand the need to sort of reign people in, but on the other hand, the lessons can be really, really pablum and boring.
...So, that would be one of my complaints about church practice. I would love to see better teaching. I don’t know if we’re capable of it in a typical ward. Maybe this is the best we can do and those manuals are necessary.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
Maybe she sat alone and later a lady sat near her.Marcus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:19 amYes it can.Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:35 am
So, which is it? Did she sit alone, or did she sit near a kind woman? It can't be both.
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Re: Hannah Seariac inadvertently points out how spiritually unsatisfying Mormonism is…
On an e-mail list of which I was a member back when e-mail lists were a thing, an Anglican priest once summarised the response he got as a missionary in Spain: "Why should I believe in your religion, when I don't even believe in the real one?"
As Carl Spackler might have put it, Catholicism has that going for it.
Seriously, the liturgy of the Mass is surprisingly short and snappy. It's the length of a poem, and it works that way. It survives translation into many languages well.
And with it the Mormon church has literally turned wine into water. How the heck did this get approved? It doesn't sound to me like anything Joseph Smith would have done. Even the other teetotal sects at least use grape juice.
As Carl Spackler might have put it, Catholicism has that going for it.
Seriously, the liturgy of the Mass is surprisingly short and snappy. It's the length of a poem, and it works that way. It survives translation into many languages well.
And with it the Mormon church has literally turned wine into water. How the heck did this get approved? It doesn't sound to me like anything Joseph Smith would have done. Even the other teetotal sects at least use grape juice.
I was a teenager before it was cool.