Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

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sock puppet
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 7:24 pm
Rollo Redux wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:26 pm
I lived in Utah County at the time of the murders and I don’t recall the incessant use of “brother,” “sister” and “Heavenly Father” as portrayed in the show. Whoever wrote the script went way overboard to make Mormons into a caricature, in my opinion.
Thanks, Rollo. It’s an odd choice to me that I don’t recall being present in the book.
When a BYU student--eons ago--only the counselors in the bishopric of the student wards were called Bro. X. I dated a girl from Lehi, however. When we'd attend her home ward there, it was Bro. and Sis. all the time. But, I've never heard "Heavenly Father" at the frequency it is used in Under the Banner. It makes me cringe; not so much due to the outside world seeing this show, but I've just never heard so much reference outside of church meetings, group prayers and FHE.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

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Rollo Redux wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:13 am
I’ve been very underwhelmed by “Banner.” The Mormon lingo is way off (far too much use of “brother” and “sister,” for example). The script makes a caricature of Mormons. I expected a lot better. I haven’t seen “Witnesses” but sounds like it sucks. Frankly, I’m surprised they even brought up Fanny Alger.
I did not think the book drew caricutures of Mormons, but this production certainly does.

In this production, the characters that stand out as seemingly real are, in my opinion, Det. Tabba (his reactions to all things Mormon are great), Allen Lafferty and Robin Lafferty. Dan L. looks like an idiot zealot--which he may (or may not) have been as extreme as painted out. Det. Pyre acts more like a 19 year old in his 3rd month of a mission, than a detective of his age.
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The best lack all conviction, while the worst//Are full of passionate intensity." Yeats
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by Rollo Redux »

I just finished episode 5, which seemed far more inaccurate than the previous episodes. My primary beef is that the show portrayed John Taylor and Brigham Young conspiring to get Joseph Smith to return and turn himself in (after running away from Nauvoo after destruction of the Expositor), which eventually led to Joseph’s murder at Carthage. This episode has John Taylor intercepting Emma’s letter Joseph (who was in hiding), having it destroyed, and then having a co-conspirator (Orrin Porter Rockwell?) orally repeat the letter to Joseph, BUT adding the false sentence accusing Joseph of being a coward. The episode claims Brigham and Taylor did this to get rid of Joseph so Brigham could take over, even suggesting Brigham was in Nauvoo at the time. Brigham, in fact, was in the Eastern States at that time electioneering for Joseph’s presidential run (most the other apostles were also all over campaigning for Joseph). Brigham didn’t hear about the murder for weeks and didn’t even return to Nauvoo until August 6th, nearly 6 weeks after the murder. I don’t know where the “Banner” screenwriter got this absurd story, but it certainly wasn’t in the book on which the series is based. Another stupid snippet had Ron Lafferty’s teenage daughter cutting out the “sacred markings” on his garments as he came home from being excommunicated at a church court. This seemed very unbelievable and was not in the book.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

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sock puppet wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:33 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 7:24 pm


Thanks, Rollo. It’s an odd choice to me that I don’t recall being present in the book.
When a BYU student--eons ago--only the counselors in the bishopric of the student wards were called Bro. X. I dated a girl from Lehi, however. When we'd attend her home ward there, it was Bro. and Sis. all the time. But, I've never heard "Heavenly Father" at the frequency it is used in Under the Banner. It makes me cringe; not so much due to the outside world seeing this show, but I've just never heard so much reference outside of church meetings, group prayers and FHE.
In the ward I grew up in, "Brother X" and "Sister Y" were common. It's so ingrained that when I ran into the wife of a former bishop several years back after not seeing her for 30 years, I said "hello sister X" out of sheer habit. :lol:
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by Res Ipsa »

sock puppet wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:37 pm
Rollo Redux wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:13 am
I’ve been very underwhelmed by “Banner.” The Mormon lingo is way off (far too much use of “brother” and “sister,” for example). The script makes a caricature of Mormons. I expected a lot better. I haven’t seen “Witnesses” but sounds like it sucks. Frankly, I’m surprised they even brought up Fanny Alger.
I did not think the book drew caricutures of Mormons, but this production certainly does.

In this production, the characters that stand out as seemingly real are, in my opinion, Det. Tabba (his reactions to all things Mormon are great), Allen Lafferty and Robin Lafferty. Dan L. looks like an idiot zealot--which he may (or may not) have been as extreme as painted out. Det. Pyre acts more like a 19 year old in his 3rd month of a mission, than a detective of his age.
I agree that Pyre is the worst. I've known a couple of people who remind me of Dan L., so I can buy him as a character.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Rollo Redux wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:12 pm
I just finished episode 5, which seemed far more inaccurate than the previous episodes. My primary beef is that the show portrayed John Taylor and Brigham Young conspiring to get Joseph Smith to return and turn himself in (after running away from Nauvoo after destruction of the Expositor), which eventually led to Joseph’s murder at Carthage. This episode has John Taylor intercepting Emma’s letter Joseph (who was in hiding), having it destroyed, and then having a co-conspirator (Orrin Porter Rockwell?) orally repeat the letter to Joseph, BUT adding the false sentence accusing Joseph of being a coward. The episode claims Brigham and Taylor did this to get rid of Joseph so Brigham could take over, even suggesting Brigham was in Nauvoo at the time. Brigham, in fact, was in the Eastern States at that time electioneering for Joseph’s presidential run (most the other apostles were also all over campaigning for Joseph). Brigham didn’t hear about the murder for weeks and didn’t even return to Nauvoo until August 6th, nearly 6 weeks after the murder. I don’t know where the “Banner” screenwriter got this absurd story, but it certainly wasn’t in the book on which the series is based. Another stupid snippet had Ron Lafferty’s teenage daughter cutting out the “sacred markings” on his garments as he came home from being excommunicated at a church court. This seemed very unbelievable and was not in the book.
Disappointing. The story told in the book was compelling enough without all the new baggage.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

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I watched episode 5, and I think, historically speaking, it went off the rails. Somehow the screenwriter got confused with Highlander, and introduced "there can only be one [prophet]" as a theme. So, the deep dive into Mormon history group that the Lafferty brothers join, called the School of the Prophets" is presented as anomalous and somehow ominous because "there can only be one." Unless I missed it, the show never mentions that Smith himself founded the original "School of the Prophets," and didn't seem at all troubled by use of the plural "Prophets."

Then, having introduced this Highlander theme, the show proceeds to imply that Brigham Young conspired to kill Smith through the story others have already critiqued because, he understood that "there can only be one."

Having established the Highlander theme in the historical events, we then are treated to a parallel when Robert refuses to call a doctor for his father, who is on his deathbed. He compares letting his father die with Brigham Young conspiring to murder Smith, as "there can be only one [family patriarch].

I have no idea whether the scene between father and son is based on any real events.

I think the lovely Ms. Ipsa was ready to shove a sock in my mouth at the repeated WTFs??? that I couldn't manage to stifle. I can understand why Pyle was introduced as a character that could tie the disparate parts of the story together. But why in the world introduce this Highlander theme into the story? What does it add to the story? If anything, it's a distraction from the other important themes in the story, including how presenting a sanitized, official version of church history led some dedicated believers who dug into the history to try and return to the original, pure doctrines of the church. In part, the church created breakaway fundamentalist sects by not being straightforward about its history. And I think it's a distraction from the theme built up at the end of Krakauer's book -- the thin boundary that separates religious devotion from insanity.

So, although I managed not to let all the weird portrayals of LDS folks ruin the series for me, I really think episode 5 jumps the shark. And it's a real shame, because the actual story is both horrific and gripping. And showing the dangers of fanaticism seems to me to be a pretty timely subject.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by runtu »

I think the script for “Banner” is pretty awful. That said, I haven’t seen “Witnesses,” but that clip about Fanny Alger is a complete fabrication. Joseph never tried to justify the affair as a sealing, not to anyone I’m aware of. If that’s how the rest of the movie goes, I’m not sorry I missed it.
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by Dr Exiled »

I'm through episode 3 and it looks like to me that the script writers and director wanted to make it easier to conclude that we are closer to the Laffertys than we want to admit. Hence the quirky dialogue. The detective seems to be starting that journey and that seems to be the conclusion that wants to be conveyed. Perhaps a case can be made that we were more like the Laffertys during the Mormon reformation times right after we got into Utah?

Some mistakes I see: I had never heard of the Laffertys prior to the gruesome murders. I don't think they were Mormon royalty as the murdered woman character said to her father when discussing marriage into the family. Although, I didn't get down to American Fork much back then. The lead detective character seems too much of a simpleton to be an actual police detective, but television needlessly dumbs down characters and dialogue, it seems, in order to make sure the all the audience gets the point. The dialogue is way off as pretty much everyone has said.

ETA: Just watched the 4th episode. The dialogue at the church at the end of the episode with the relief society president and the detective made me want to throw up. It was never as culty/creepy as that in my experience. It seems pretty obvious where this is going. Maybe in a future episode, a picture of the Lafferty brothers and the SLC temple will merge into one, just to make it even more clear what the series is trying to accomplish?
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Re: Which Is More Accurate, Witnesses or Under The Banner Of Heaven?

Post by BlueFunk96 »

Rollo Redux wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:26 pm
I lived in Utah County at the time of the murders and I don’t recall the incessant use of “brother,” “sister” and “Heavenly Father” as portrayed in the show. Whoever wrote the script went way overboard to make Mormons into a caricature, in my opinion.
Yeah, and also I've not yet heard anyone yet start a prayer with, "Our Dear, Kind, Gracious Heavenly Father"! That's how I remember most prayers starting in church.

The "Brother" and "Sister" thing is a bit exaggerated, especially in the secular settings. For instance, I had a teacher in high school who was in our ward. At school, we referred to him as "Mister". But absolutely, everywhere else, it was "Brother."

I think the "Brother/Sister" and "Heavenly Father" thing is far less subtle in the show than in real life, but it kind of has to be, as the show is only a small snapshot of time. To get the flavor of how much Mormon culture penetrates Utah, I think they had to exaggerate a bit.

And to be fair, the concept of God as "Heavenly Father" is central to Mormon beliefs and culture, and maybe the term isn't used as frequently as it is in the show, but again, it's just a bit of an exaggeration, not the "caricature" some seem to see.
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