do I understand the definition of a woman?

[Markk]

We are all the same genetically….common genes allow the variables you mentioned, and allow disease and disorders. The disorders that we have been discussing are rare and if you wish “mutations.” These are biologically defined as best as research and advancement allows.

Well no we are all different genetically. Genetics plays a large role in why we look and act differently. It also plays a role in biological sex and gender identity. There is still a lot to learn in these areas, but it appears genetics and environment may play the biggest roles in gender identity. Most cultural inferences tends to push conformity to a binary view of sex and gender.

What I gather you are saying is that basically there is no such thing as disease and disorders in the medical sense, but that disorders and disease are just par for the course and should not be understood as medical conditions. Is that fair?

No I am just saying that some things that were called disorders no longer are, like homosexuality.

The general genetic “model” for the human being is the same…the normative/healthy adult human being have 1 head, 1 body, 2 eyes, one mouth…etc. The normative health reproduction system is one that can reproduce. The model differs within itsself with traits which are inherited. Biologically, in regards to th e healthy model, there are only two genders male/female… adult male are men, and adult females are women.

The non-binary view is one that goes beyond science and biology…it is a what a doctor or parent assigns, or what the person decides…based on a spectrum of reasons…like the medical ones we have been discussing, or use like the parent in the video I gave you is doing. A biological male can just choose to identify as a woman because they feel like it, and it must be understood they are female, and the reality of what they are is ignored.

No I am just saying that some things that were called disorders no longer are, like homosexuality.

You wrote …”It depends on if it affects their overall health physically and mentally/physiological health. Should we call blue or green eyes a disorder?”

I am not sure how that lends to things like homosexuality. Homosexuality is not a gender identification, there are gay men and gay women. I have a very close family member that is a very proud gay biological man. Homosexuality is a same sex/gender attraction…unless you are stating homosexuality is just a choice, which I know is not your belief.

[doubtingthomas]

The general genetic “model” for the human being is the same…the normative/healthy adult human being have 1 head, 1 body, 2 eyes, one mouth…etc.

No one is going to take your seriously until you answer my questions.

1. How exactly would Ephesians 5:22 apply to a married person with CAIS?

2. Do you believe the Lord is cool with same sex marriage?

3. How would Jesus heal a person with CAIS who identifies as female? Would a dick and testicles magically appear?

[Themis]

The general genetic “model” for the human being is the same…the normative/healthy adult human being have 1 head, 1 body, 2 eyes, one mouth…etc. The normative health reproduction system is one that can reproduce. The model differs within itsself with traits which are inherited. Biologically, in regards to th e healthy model, there are only two genders male/female… adult male are men, and adult females are women.

I would say 99.999% of people only have one head, but the differences in heads is astronomical. Same with eyes and mouths. Every part of us have massive variability between individuals including reproductive organs, hormones, etc. Could that not affect how we feel and think?

The non-binary view is one that goes beyond science and biology…it is a what a doctor or parent assigns, or what the person decides…based on a spectrum of reasons…like the medical ones we have been discussing, or use like the parent in the video I gave you is doing. A biological male can just choose to identify as a woman because they feel like it, and it must be understood they are female, and the reality of what they are is ignored.

Given what I have written above, maybe the more interesting question is why they may feel their biological sex does not fit who they feel and see themselves as.

I am not sure how that lends to things like homosexuality. Homosexuality is not a gender identification, there are gay men and gay women. I have a very close family member that is a very proud gay biological man. Homosexuality is a same sex/gender attraction…unless you are stating homosexuality is just a choice, which I know is not your belief.

It's really the same question of why they may feel attracted to same sex, or even why most feel attracted to opposite sex. Homosexuality is related to gender identity. Many identify as gay before expressing feelings of being the wrong sex or gender.

[Markk]

The general genetic “model” for the human being is the same…the normative/healthy adult human being have 1 head, 1 body, 2 eyes, one mouth…etc. The normative health reproduction system is one that can reproduce. The model differs within itsself with traits which are inherited. Biologically, in regards to th e healthy model, there are only two genders male/female… adult male are men, and adult females are women.

I would say 99.999% of people only have one head, but the differences in heads is astronomical. Same with eyes and mouths. Every part of us have massive variability between individuals including reproductive organs, hormones, etc. Could that not affect how we feel and think?

The non-binary view is one that goes beyond science and biology…it is a what a doctor or parent assigns, or what the person decides…based on a spectrum of reasons…like the medical ones we have been discussing, or use like the parent in the video I gave you is doing. A biological male can just choose to identify as a woman because they feel like it, and it must be understood they are female, and the reality of what they are is ignored.

Given what I have written above, maybe the more interesting question is why they may feel their biological sex does not fit who they feel and see themselves as.

I am not sure how that lends to things like homosexuality. Homosexuality is not a gender identification, there are gay men and gay women. I have a very close family member that is a very proud gay biological man. Homosexuality is a same sex/gender attraction…unless you are stating homosexuality is just a choice, which I know is not your belief.

It's really the same question of why they may feel attracted to same sex, or even why most feel attracted to opposite sex. Homosexuality is related to gender identity. Many identify as gay before expressing feelings of being the wrong sex or gender.

And people born with more than one head, or multiple organs, or less than normal body parts, is because of abnormal biological and genetic conditions…medical conditions. Disease and disorders. There are also deformities, that are abnormal to the normal model as I asserted elsewhere.

Yes we have different traits, and that are pasted on and developed within different culture and race…but genetically we are the same, sexually we can “breed” with others races and cultures because we are genetically the same beings.

Trying to force DSD’s and disorders from the abnormal into the normative…does not make it true or logical…in my opinion it only denies the reality of the disorder, and pretends it does not exists.

Given what I have written above, maybe the more interesting question is why they may feel their biological sex does not fit who they feel and see themselves as.

It is an interesting question indeed.

My life experience is that there seems to be many reasons from a observational perspective. One of my best friends growing up is gay…maybe bi. And we (my group of friends) had no idea he was gay until after high school…But, and an important “but”…looking back there were a lot signs that he was attracted to the opposite sex, I was just to young and ignorant to remotely understand it at the time. I took him on a scouting trip for a week or so in the High Sierras with my ward troop when we were around 13 or 14 ( he had never been to church until I took him)…and he was molested by a assistant leader…but I think, out of hindsight it was his attraction to men that might have made him an easier target by that a-hole/criminal scout leader. I have no idea why he is attracted to the same sex, but I know out of hindsight he had those feelings.

I know there is a lot written on it from just about every side of every argument there is, but this is certainly a separate discussion from disorders and DSD’s…and having to choose a sexual identification.

If you haven’t watched the three videos I linked about folks who have DSD’s…it is worth the time to do so, at least in my opinion.


Also what about the video I linked to that is about a family raising their child as a non gender child, that will decideswhat they are later in life when they are old enough? If you commented on that I missed it.

Thanks

[Themis]

And people born with more than one head, or multiple organs, or less than normal body parts, is because of abnormal biological and genetic conditions…medical conditions. Disease and disorders. There are also deformities, that are abnormal to the normal model as I asserted elsewhere.

They say two heads is better than one, but it certainly would be abnormal. What is normal is a billion different heads.

Yes we have different traits, and that are pasted on and developed within different culture and race…but genetically we are the same, sexually we can “breed” with others races and cultures because we are genetically the same beings.

You are using the term genetically the same incorrectly. The proper term would be species. Species means a group of organism's that can breed together. We are certainly not all the same genetically. A green eyed individual has a genetically different code on their DNA than a brown eyed individual.

Trying to force DSD’s and disorders from the abnormal into the normative…does not make it true or logical…in my opinion it only denies the reality of the disorder, and pretends it does not exists.

I don't see that happening. An XY female in most cases is probably assigned female due to the individual meeting most of the criteria of how we identify biological sex. If we know they have an XY chromosome we understand it is not the norm for most people with an XY, but we don't consider them now male biologically. They are still female biologically even if they decide later it does not fit what gender they see themselves as.

It is an interesting question indeed.

My life experience is that there seems to be many reasons from a observational perspective. One of my best friends growing up is gay…maybe bi. And we (my group of friends) had no idea he was gay until after high school…But, and an important “but”…looking back there were a lot signs that he was attracted to the opposite sex, I was just to young and ignorant to remotely understand it at the time. I took him on a scouting trip for a week or so in the High Sierras with my ward troop when we were around 13 or 14 ( he had never been to church until I took him)…and he was molested by a assistant leader…but I think, out of hindsight it was his attraction to men that might have made him an easier target by that a-hole/criminal scout leader. I have no idea why he is attracted to the same sex, but I know out of hindsight he had those feelings.

He like many grew up in a culture that looked extremely negatively on anyone who expressed those feelings. Culture doesn't explain these feelings.

Also what about the video I linked to that is about a family raising their child as a non gender child, that will decideswhat they are later in life when they are old enough? If you commented on that I missed it.

Not sure what I am supposed to comment on here. I don't approve or disapprove. I suspect if my parents did that I would still be the person I am today.

know there is a lot written on it from just about every side of every argument there is, but this is certainly a separate discussion from disorders and DSD’s…and having to choose a sexual identification.

They are all very related. They all involve feelings of how they see themselves and who they are attracted to. LGBTQ. Is being heterosexual a choice any more than being homosexual or seeing yourself as a different gender then you were assigned? Why do people feel this way. Culture certainly doesn't explain it.

I'm reminded of a relative who needed treatment on a liver he had damaged through decades of drinking. They had a new treatment that had a drug he was warned had a side affect of making one emotional at times for no reason. Even with the warning he was still surprised how a drug could control how he felt and had no real control over it. We are more slaves to biochemistry than most people realize.

[Markk]

Themis wrote…They say two heads is better than one, but it certainly would be abnormal. What is normal is a billion different heads.

By this logic then there is no such thing as human beings and a genetic model for them. Shall we just bypass the non-binary gender identification and just conclude that the definition of human beings are also subjective based on the persons feelings of what they are? Where does this stop, and again what is the absolute benchmark of what we are from a biological perspective.

You are using the term genetically the same incorrectly. The proper term would be species. Species means a group of organism's that can breed together. We are certainly not all the same genetically. A green eyed individual has a genetically different code on their DNA than a brown eyed individual.

Every species share the same genetic model, that is why cats don’t breed with birds, and humans can’t breed with dolphins. Our genetic models(DNA) is different and the code for each species.

Our genes as humans differ in that “traits” form characteristics of us based on different factors…genotypes and phenotypes offer to our traits as human beings. Colored eyes are a genotype carried by inherited genes, while phenotypes are based on things like environmental conditions like diet and temperature.

More later….

[Markk]

Themis wrote…Not sure what I am supposed to comment on here. I don't approve or disapprove. I suspect if my parents did that I would still be the person I am today.

Well, the video reflects what you are asserting…the persons ( I can’t say woman or mother using this “model”) child will determine their gender later in life based on their own feelings and not by the boy/girl binary standard.

By saying you don’t approve or disapprove seems like a cop out given your assertions here. If the world is going to adopt a non-binary approach to gender identification, then wouldn’t the family’s method be the norm?

Themis wrote…They are all very related. They all involve feelings of how they see themselves and who they are attracted to. LGBTQ. Is being heterosexual a choice any more than being homosexual or seeing yourself as a different gender then you were assigned? Why do people feel this way. Culture certainly doesn't explain it.

I'm reminded of a relative who needed treatment on a liver he had damaged through decades of drinking. They had a new treatment that had a drug he was warned had a side affect of making one emotional at times for no reason. Even with the warning he was still surprised how a drug could control how he felt and had no real control over it. We are more slaves to biochemistry than most people realize.

Again…apples and oranges to disorders and you are ignoring that there is a biological bench mark for male/female… (adult men and women by definition) which is the XX/XY model. Because of a small percentage of people that have a DSD or skewed ‘biochemistry’ does not mean in any way we can not define what a man or woman is, which is adult males/female human beings.

[Themis]

By this logic then there is no such thing as human beings and a genetic model for them. Shall we just bypass the non-binary gender identification and just conclude that the definition of human beings are also subjective based on the persons feelings of what they are? Where does this stop, and again what is the absolute benchmark of what we are from a biological perspective.

Every species share the same genetic model, that is why cats don’t breed with birds, and humans can’t breed with dolphins. Our genetic models(DNA) is different and the code for each species.

Our genes as humans differ in that “traits” form characteristics of us based on different factors…genotypes and phenotypes offer to our traits as human beings. Colored eyes are a genotype carried by inherited genes, while phenotypes are based on things like environmental conditions like diet and temperature.

More later….

You are getting off topic again. Everyone already knows each species will have a set of genetic material unique to them. The point is that each species, including humans have a lot of genetic variability within a species. Why, even with identical twins, no two humans are 100% the same. This includes all things related to sex and gender. Think of it as more a spectrum than binary.

[Themis]

Well, the video reflects what you are asserting…the persons ( I can’t say woman or mother using this “model”) child will determine their gender later in life based on their own feelings and not by the boy/girl binary standard.

By saying you don’t approve or disapprove seems like a cop out given your assertions here. If the world is going to adopt a non-binary approach to gender identification, then wouldn’t the family’s method be the norm?

It doesn't have to be. I'm not against or for it and you seem to agree that biology will take over and probably see little difference from what we see today. Again it doesn't have to be binary. You could take a softer approach and raise them as boy or girl, but not push it on them. This would allow those who don't fit the norm will be more open about how the feel and identify.

Again…apples and oranges to disorders and you are ignoring that there is a biological bench mark for male/female… (adult men and women by definition) which is the XX/XY model. Because of a small percentage of people that have a DSD or skewed ‘biochemistry’ does not mean in any way we can not define what a man or woman is, which is adult males/female human beings.

But again it's not XX/XY. It's what is on them that decides how one is going to develop from the genetic material. This is why a few XY people are biologically female, and when they become adults you would call them women. Biological sex is defined by how we develop. Now when I talk about biochemistry in the group of people you consider healthy male or females, there is a spectrum of differences. From things like hormones, sex drive, etc. All these things have profound influence on how we think and feel. Like the examples of a drug that can make you cry for no reason, our biochemistry has a lot of influence on who we are. Slaves to our biochemistry, so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge or deny them how they feel or view themselves as.

[doubtingthomas]

But again it's not XX/XY. It's what is on them that decides how one is going to develop from the genetic material. This is why a few XY people are biologically female, and when they become adults you would call them women.

I don't understand why you keep arguing with Markk.