do I understand the definition of a woman?

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Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:25 am
Only by asserting that diseases and disorders are somehow the norm, when any variation of the XX/XY model and benchmark are actually abnormal and rare. I have shown this from the beginning, from respected medical links. You are arguing against science in order to carry a hollow narrative pushed by a small minority with a much larger platform.
I have not asserted it was the norm, but it does break your rule.
As humans we share many characteristics, but sexually, men and women are obviously very different. Each serve a role in the furthering of the human race. Left alone, without meddling, nature will continue to prove what you are trying to assert is just not true.
It's very complex and there is overlap in what you call the healthy male and female population. We are all made up of the same building blocks.
You brought up the voice range in regards to gender identification, I just carried your example further along and questioned it…but read this…do you agree with this…do you believe a 8-13 year old can make a rational decision to take puberty blockers, based on their feelings?
I brought it up as an example of the many sexual characteristics that over lap in your healthy male and female population. A male having a high voice does not mean they are having a gender identity issue. You seem to be fine with biochemistry playing a role opposite sex attraction, possibly for same sex attraction, but don't seem open to the idea biochemistry may play a real role in why people have gender identity issues.

Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health. You should read the whole article. Doubtingthomas's question suggests you have no problem doing a circumcision on an infant we both agree does not have the ability make informed consent.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm
Markk wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:25 am
Only by asserting that diseases and disorders are somehow the norm, when any variation of the XX/XY model and benchmark are actually abnormal and rare. I have shown this from the beginning, from respected medical links. You are arguing against science in order to carry a hollow narrative pushed by a small minority with a much larger platform.
I have not asserted it was the norm, but it does break your rule.
As humans we share many characteristics, but sexually, men and women are obviously very different. Each serve a role in the furthering of the human race. Left alone, without meddling, nature will continue to prove what you are trying to assert is just not true.
It's very complex and there is overlap in what you call the healthy male and female population. We are all made up of the same building blocks.
You brought up the voice range in regards to gender identification, I just carried your example further along and questioned it…but read this…do you agree with this…do you believe a 8-13 year old can make a rational decision to take puberty blockers, based on their feelings?
I brought it up as an example of the many sexual characteristics that over lap in your healthy male and female population. A male having a high voice does not mean they are having a gender identity issue. You seem to be fine with biochemistry playing a role opposite sex attraction, possibly for same sex attraction, but don't seem open to the idea biochemistry may play a real role in why people have gender identity issues.

Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health. You should read the whole article. Doubtingthomas's question suggests you have no problem doing a circumcision on an infant we both agree does not have the ability make informed consent.
Hey Themis,
Themis wrote…
I have not asserted it was the norm, but it does break your rule.

1st of all, it is not my “rule.” It is biology 101 in regards to the basic genetic make up of male and female humans, respectively. It is the genetic reasons we as humans can naturally propagate.

2nd…if as you now concede it is not the norm, it follows that chromosomal sequences that fall outside the XX/XY normative pattern are abnormal…and as I have related in multiple links, very rare. What “breaks the rule” are disorders that for different genetic reasons, as discussed, deviate from the normative model.
It's very complex and there is overlap in what you call the healthy male and female population. We are all made up of the same building blocks.
Please define what you mean by overlap? Are you talking about chromosomal mutations, or traits within the model, or other? Again you seem to imply I am just making up my position ( “a healthymale and female population”), and that there is no such thing a healthy model that allows us to exist, and therefore we cannot define what a man and a woman is?

We are certainly complex, but science has been able to show how the building blocks for all this works, and how mutations of the model can create these disorders in many cases, and that they are abnormalities of the model…as the many links have pointed out. Great research, monies and time, with success, have come up with cures and more often advancements for these disorders…even if there is still a long road ahead for complete understanding and cures.
Themis wrote…
I brought it up as an example of the many sexual characteristics that over lap in your healthy male and female population. A male having a high voice does not mean they are having a gender identity issue. You seem to be fine with biochemistry playing a role opposite sex attraction, possibly for same sex attraction, but don't seem open to the idea biochemistry may play a real role in why people have gender identity issues.
Again define over lap? Sexual attraction is a completely different issue…XY men can be attracted to other XY men, and XX women, to other XX women…and they are still biologically men and women. Their attractions, do not change their DNA, which you seen to be implying here?

I have been reading a bit on XX brains vs XY brains, they are different, and one article I was reading stated that this is a major issue with those suffering with AIS, in that their sex organs appear female, and they identity as female, many not knowing they have AIS until puberty, yet their being XY biologically, their brains are male originated, which cause confusions within their gender identification. If you watched the documentaries I linked, reading this paper helped me understand better some of the stories I watched.

Themis wrote…Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health. You should read the whole article. Doubtingthomas's question suggests you have no problem doing a circumcision on an infant we both agree does not have the ability make informed consent.
I did read the whole article, twice. I did not ask you if people can make medical decisions, I asked if it is okay by you in regards to this specific discussion ? Comparing circumcision with changing the biological sex of a child, with a lifetime of treatments is hardly the same thing, and in my opinion an excuse to not address this issue. It is kinda like a Mormon (I did this) saying that Joseph Smith was justified having a 14 year old wife because others did so at the time, when we both know he was a sexual predator and a man whore. Double standard arguments can be helpful, but also deeply circular, and lead folks away from issues and allow justification of personal ideologies. Because parents choose to circumcise their child, should they be allowed to cut their fingers and toes off…of course not, so lets keep things in context.

If you believe a 8 year old (the average age that kids stop believeing in Santa is 8.4 years old) , has the ability to make an informed decision that will affect their whole life dramatically, with possible life changing surgeries and a life of required medications (hormone treatments)…then we are certainly fundamentally opposed. Also there are policies (laws?) that are in affect that allows these kids to be counseled on this, by teachers, without parental knowledge. Do you agree with that?


Great conversation,
Thanks
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:29 pm
Please define what you mean by overlap?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/
Sexual attraction is a completely different issue…XY men can be attracted to other XY men, and XX women, to other XX women…and they are still biologically men and women. Their attractions, do not change their DNA, which you seen to be implying here?
They are certainly related. Do you really think gender identity is not going to play a role in sexual attraction? Do you think biology, genetics and environment) play a role in sexual attraction, and if yes do you think that it would also play a role in gender identity?
Comparing circumcision with changing the biological sex of a child, with a lifetime of treatments is hardly the same thing, and in my opinion an excuse to not address this issue.
Feel free to change it to changing biological sex on infants than.
If you believe a 8 year old (the average age that kids stop believeing in Santa is 8.4 years old)
Sounds like you are making an argument that they are starting to question, which is an important quality in making decisions. Anyways we have a large group of adults who believe other just as silly things. It is also the age many groups like LDS baptize their kids(age of accountability), meaning 8 has some significance to their ability to make reasoned choices.
Also there are policies (laws?) that are in affect that allows these kids to be counseled on this, by teachers, without parental knowledge. Do you agree with that?
I cannot comment on any specific law unless you provide what laws you are talking about. Keep in mind that we keep counseling confidence even from parents whether in their religion or a counselor at school. It's very important not to break confidence because it will create an environment where children will not talk to anyone. It's bad enough that they get a lot of poor information from the school yard.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 pm
Markk wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:29 pm
Please define what you mean by overlap?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/
Sexual attraction is a completely different issue…XY men can be attracted to other XY men, and XX women, to other XX women…and they are still biologically men and women. Their attractions, do not change their DNA, which you seen to be implying here?
They are certainly related. Do you really think gender identity is not going to play a role in sexual attraction? Do you think biology, genetics and environment) play a role in sexual attraction, and if yes do you think that it would also play a role in gender identity?
Comparing circumcision with changing the biological sex of a child, with a lifetime of treatments is hardly the same thing, and in my opinion an excuse to not address this issue.
Feel free to change it to changing biological sex on infants than.
If you believe a 8 year old (the average age that kids stop believeing in Santa is 8.4 years old)
Sounds like you are making an argument that they are starting to question, which is an important quality in making decisions. Anyways we have a large group of adults who believe other just as silly things. It is also the age many groups like LDS baptize their kids(age of accountability), meaning 8 has some significance to their ability to make reasoned choices.
Also there are policies (laws?) that are in affect that allows these kids to be counseled on this, by teachers, without parental knowledge. Do you agree with that?
I cannot comment on any specific law unless you provide what laws you are talking about. Keep in mind that we keep counseling confidence even from parents whether in their religion or a counselor at school. It's very important not to break confidence because it will create an environment where children will not talk to anyone. It's bad enough that they get a lot of poor information from the school yard.
Hi Themis,

I have read this article before, and I read it again. Thanks.


The article/link discusses in context DSD’s. Included in her “spectrum” apart from the XX/XY model are mutations and DSD’s, or plainly put abnormalities of the XX/XY model. In a previous post you stated you do not assert that abnormalities were within the normative spectrum, and yet, this article includes abnormal DSD’s, including full AIS in the XX/XY model.

What this thread has shown me, and I am extremely glad I entered into it in that it opened my eyes to DSD’s.

in my opinion, there are two main issues here. Folks with varying clear genetic disorders, apart from the XX/XY model, and of folks with no clear genetic abnormality, but of a mental or biochemistry condition that confuses what their biological gender is. Is that a fair statement?

While I very loosely knew of “DSD’s” ( I was not familiar with this term), but was completely unaware of the spectrum of these abnormalities. And I believe that folks that have followed this thread have learned a lot, apart from our political talking points.
Themis wrote…
They are certainly related. Do you really think gender identity is not going to play a role in sexual attraction? Do you think biology, genetics and environment) play a role in sexual attraction, and if yes do you think that it would also play a role in gender identity?
Again a different topic….gay men are just that…men, and gay women, women…with XX/XY genes respectively. Transgender people are not gay men, nor gay women, they are transgender and this is just one of a growing list of gender identifications. Some transgenders are transgender/non gender out of necessity because of disorders, and others because of choice, even though they are within the XX/XY model.

We are not discussing sexual attraction, but sexual identity. Apples and oranges.

Themis wrote…Feel free to change it to changing biological sex on infants than.
Using circumision as an example to changing ones sex, with majorly surgery, life time hormone treatments and medical problems e.g. bone lose… is just a diversion in dealing with this difficult topic. If you need to use such a petty double standard argument, then your original argument can’t stand up…just like trying to group opposite sex attraction, to sexual identification.
Themis wrote…Sounds like you are making an argument that they are starting to question, which is an important quality in making decisions. Anyways we have a large group of adults who believe other just as silly things. It is also the age many groups like LDS baptize their kids(age of accountability), meaning 8 has some significance to their ability to make reasoned choices.
I will, for the record, take it that you believe a 8 year old is then capable of making such a decision. As a former 8 year old, and a parent, and grand parent… with all my heart disagree. In fact in my opinion, I believe it is some sort of abuse.

The two issues come into affect here…with DSD’s the folks have to make very difficult decisions. Those with just feelings of gender confusion, often regret making such irreversible decisions, and to think a 8 year old, or any age child can make such a decision is just in my opinion wrong.
Themis wrote…I cannot comment on any specific law unless you provide what laws you are talking about. Keep in mind that we keep counseling confidence even from parents whether in their religion or a counselor at school. It's very important not to break confidence because it will create an environment where children will not talk to anyone. It's bad enough that they get a lot of poor information from the school yard.
That is insanity and just opens the door to big brother indoctrination. To trust total strangers with your child’s future without full disclosure.

What is the limits a school can counsel kids on without parental knowledge?

Taking life time hormone treatments, surgically removing sex organs, best face tattoos? Best weapons for home defense? Best way to take heroin (snort, shoot,, smoke)? Who decides what is okay to teach children behind the parents backs?
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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

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Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm
You brought up the voice range in regards to gender identification, I just carried your example further along and questioned it…but read this…do you agree with this…do you believe a 8-13 year old can make a rational decision to take puberty blockers, based on their feelings?
Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health.
Part I've bolded. Why do you think that, Themis?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:32 pm
The article/link discusses in context DSD’s. Included in her “spectrum” apart from the XX/XY model are mutations and DSD’s, or plainly put abnormalities of the XX/XY model. In a previous post you stated you do not assert that abnormalities were within the normative spectrum, and yet, this article includes abnormal DSD’s, including full AIS in the XX/XY model.
It talks about more than just the abnormalities you have focused on, and sex differences within say a normative spectrum are nor really abnormalities, but normal over lap that will happen. Nature doesn't have some perfect model it is trying to preserve. It just goes with what works.
in my opinion, there are two main issues here. Folks with varying clear genetic disorders, apart from the XX/XY model, and of folks with no clear genetic abnormality, but of a mental or biochemistry condition that confuses what their biological gender is. Is that a fair statement?
It's what I have been talking about that differences is gender identity may be a result of biochemistry, just as same or opposite sex attraction.
Again a different topic….gay men are just that…men, and gay women, women…with XX/XY genes respectively. Transgender people are not gay men, nor gay women, they are transgender and this is just one of a growing list of gender identifications. Some transgenders are transgender/non gender out of necessity because of disorders, and others because of choice, even though they are within the XX/XY model.

We are not discussing sexual attraction, but sexual identity. Apples and oranges.
I would say they are very related and one cannot have a full discussion without the other. Same sex attraction is more than I want to have sex with someone of the same sex. Many gay people may see themselves in a more masculine role or feminine role. Many make transitions later on to changing their biological sex to match how they see their gender. There's gay men who see themselves as feminine but don't desire any sex changes. It's a wide spectrum and very related to gender identity.
I will, for the record, take it that you believe a 8 year old is then capable of making such a decision. As a former 8 year old, and a parent, and grand parent… with all my heart disagree. In fact in my opinion, I believe it is some sort of abuse.
Ah the religious abuse BS. They do have some capability to make rational decisions, but those decisions are not made by themselves, but would involve parents and medical professionals. !@ year olds have more and 16 years even more. It's also a spectrum and can vary a lot by individual.
That is insanity and just opens the door to big brother indoctrination. To trust total strangers with your child’s future without full disclosure.

What is the limits a school can counsel kids on without parental knowledge?
Not sure why you are upset about something that has been going on long before you were born.
Taking life time hormone treatments, surgically removing sex organs, best face tattoos? Best weapons for home defense? Best way to take heroin (snort, shoot,, smoke)? Who decides what is okay to teach children behind the parents backs?
Counseling in these areas does not usually involve teaching about the issues you list, and rules about this have been around long before we were around, and do vary by place or organization. Certain topics are to be keep in confidence if it does not involve potential harm to oneself or others. These kind of standards have been around almost a long as religion. The state has rules here for a very long time, and they can vary by state. I'm sure they are some rules I would not agree with, but I would need specifics to comment on them.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:59 pm
Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm



Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health.
Part I've bolded. Why do you think that, Themis?
I see kids as being able to have some say in their life and health, and while infants obviously have no say, some say should start to come into play by certain ages or maturity levels. Obviously 8 years olds will not get final say, but a child should have more say or influence as they get older and more mature. With consultation with parents and medical professionals I don't see why they cannot come up with a reasonable course of action or inaction.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm
Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health.
100% disagree. 8-year-olds are not rational actors, are highly suggestible, and undisciplined in virtually every sense of the word. in my opinion, the can’t even begin to comprehend long-term consequences of medical decisions beyond short-term notions, and worse, if they’re being groomed into a role of some sort they simply can’t recognize the long-term effects of what’s happening to them nor the choices they make within that paradigm.

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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Themis wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:17 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:59 pm


Part I've bolded. Why do you think that, Themis?
I see kids as being able to have some say in their life and health, and while infants obviously have no say, some say should start to come into play by certain ages or maturity levels. Obviously 8 years olds will not get final say, but a child should have more say or influence as they get older and more mature. With consultation with parents and medical professionals I don't see why they cannot come up with a reasonable course of action or inaction.
I think you should research what developmental theorists have to say regarding the development of 8 year olds.

A relatable case in point: LDS children are often baptized at age 8. Do you know of many or even any children that age who decline to do so? There's a reason that the majority follow through with baptism and it's got nothing to do with religion per se.

ETA: As I mentioned in a post to Cam. Check on Kohlberg and Piaget. Those are your go to theorists re the decision making capacity and reasoning functions of 8 year olds.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:49 am
Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm
Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health.
100% disagree. 8-year-olds are not rational actors, are highly suggestible, and undisciplined in virtually every sense of the word. in my opinion, the can’t even begin to comprehend long-term consequences of medical decisions beyond short-term notions, and worse, if they’re being groomed into a role of some sort they simply can’t recognize the long-term effects of what’s happening to them nor the choices they make within that paradigm.

- Doc
Amen, Sir. You have it exactly right.

A good idea if you'd personally like to expand your knowledge base (if you haven't already--there are some indications you have or you innately know it through your own observations/experiences) would be to research the work of developmental theorist Lawrence Kohlberg and his stage theory on moral development. Also Piagetian theory if you have not.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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