Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

[dastardly stem]

Again, the million dollar question is could Joseph have performed this feat on his own? Especially at this stage of his life.

That's not even a 10 cent question. Everyone already agrees Joseph wrote it, believer and non-believer alike, aside from those who think he stole it or collaborated with others. The book is not found to exist until after Joseph and his writers put out to get printed. Your question is why does no one aside from those few Mormons, relatively speaking, find it valuable? Why does the religion appeal to so few? If God is behind it and wished it to come forth for inspiration and meaning, then why is it so lacking of inspiration and meaning to most of humanity? We can say that's the human's fault and that is quite possible. But that doesn't prove it's from God. That's just post hoc justification.

As I mentioned in my initial post, critics have to either ignore or go to great lengths to circumvent the complexity of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s testimony as to how it came forth.

Angels, etc.

Regards,
MG

No they don't. You don't win by trying to flip the burden on others when you have failed to satisfy your burden first. Critics only have to point out that millions of books have come forth. Not one is shown to be from God. People less educated than Joseph perhaps even judged by others to be incapable of writing books have written books. That happens. With religion all too often we call the mundane miraculous and expect everyone else to accept the mundane as a miracle all because someone thinks its a miracle.

If you want others to see the book as valuable, explain how its valuable. It's not valuable because Joseph claimed it was from God. It has to actually mean something. Once most people are on board with it being a valuable work, then we can talk about it being inspired beyond other books. Until then it's just book. It means very little to humanity and it carries no unique inspiration.

[MG 2.0]

Again, the million dollar question is could Joseph have performed this feat on his own? Especially at this stage of his life.

That's not even a 10 cent question. Everyone already agrees Joseph wrote it, believer and non-believer alike, aside from those who think he stole it or collaborated with others. The book is not found to exist until after Joseph and his writers put out to get printed. Your question is why does no one aside from those few Mormons, relatively speaking, find it valuable? Why does the religion appeal to so few? If God is behind it and wished it to come forth for inspiration and meaning, then why is it so lacking of inspiration and meaning to most of humanity? We can say that's the human's fault and that is quite possible. But that doesn't prove it's from God. That's just post hoc justification.

As I mentioned in my initial post, critics have to either ignore or go to great lengths to circumvent the complexity of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s testimony as to how it came forth.

Angels, etc.

Regards,
MG

No they don't. You don't win by trying to flip the burden on others when you have failed to satisfy your burden first. Critics only have to point out that millions of books have come forth. Not one is shown to be from God. People less educated than Joseph perhaps even judged by others to be incapable of writing books have written books. That happens. With religion all too often we call the mundane miraculous and expect everyone else to accept the mundane as a miracle all because someone thinks its a miracle.

If you want others to see the book as valuable, explain how its valuable. It's not valuable because Joseph claimed it was from God. It has to actually mean something. Once most people are on board with it being a valuable work, then we can talk about it being inspired beyond other books. Until then it's just book. It means very little to humanity and it carries no unique inspiration.

You are proving my point. Critics are duty bound to ignore the evidence that leans in the direction of Joseph not having the ability to do what was done in the Book of Mormon’s production. Folks such as Rasmussen and Hales come along a show that the Book of Mormon and its origins are not quite as explainable…naturalistically…as they would like to suppose. Folks that have thoroughly studied the translation process and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and put forth strong reasoning and evidence to support divine origins are looked at as being simpletons in the sense that these ‘dupes’ look at the process as being directed by God. Again, with good reason.

The critics come back with “God, yeah, right.”

It’s a nonstarter.

So there you have it. At the end of the day you have God believers and those that don’t believe in God going the rounds. Over and over and over again. Ad nauseam.

I’m perfectly fine with the fact that you see the Book of Mormon as being non miraculous. But I think that a critic is also, if they are being honest, obligated to see the points made by folks such as Rasmussen, Hales, and others, as having merit. Enough merit to actually be reason to see the Book of Mormon as the product of the divine.

You ask what is the big deal about the Book of Mormon anyway? It’s rather obvious. It’s another testament of Jesus Christ and his crucifixion and resurrection. A doctrinal position that has come under attack and is believed in by fewer and fewer people today.

And that is a big deal.

The Book of Mormon claims to be an artifact from the ancient world brought forth and translated in our day to testify to the world that Jesus is indeed the Christ, and that God has a plan to save and redeem almost all of His children to the extent that they believe in and follow the teachings and commandments given by Him.

We are not alone.

Some have the faith to believe and others don’t. This has always been the case.

Regards,
MG

[¥akaSteelhead]

So there you have it. At the end of the day you have God believers and those that don’t believe in God going the rounds. Over and over and over again. Ad nauseam.

Not really. You have a subset of god believers - the Mormons - going the rounds. The vast majority of christianity, then pretty much the entirety of judaism, islan, hinduism, budhism, etc doesn't even know this is a discussion point.

[MG 2.0]

Then you’re back to square one.

Square one is arriving in Bountiful and NOT having a fire until Nephi gets his pompous ass down from the mount to give his father and brethren a new commandment which is they must build a ship and Nephi will show everyone how to do it. But first, they need to collect the ore and build a bellows. THEN, after that, lord Nephi will strike two lucky stones together to cause a spark and make a fire. At last, mom can have a bath and Nephi's wife can wash her privates properly.

What's wrong with this story, MG? Explain it to me in your own words.

Anachronisms and anomalies are in the Book of Mormon. Of greater importance than trying to work out a relatively few anomalies and anachronisms…in my opinion…is looking at the bigger picture of message and meaning of the Book of Mormon itself. To harp on and/or focus and concentrate on a few points of ‘paint’…think Monet…rather than looking at the larger picture disallows for seeing the divine creator of the larger picture on the canvas.

Are there anomalies and anachronisms that I have no explanation for in the Book of Mormon? Sure.

But I believe the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be. A gift from Heaven to those in our day and time to testify of Jesus Christ, the divine destiny and purpose of creation, and that God works His will and oversees his works in a world created as a testing/proving ground for His children.

Fallen condition, warts, and all.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

So there you have it. At the end of the day you have God believers and those that don’t believe in God going the rounds. Over and over and over again. Ad nauseam.

Not really. You have a subset of god believers - the Mormons - going the rounds. The vast majority of christianity, then pretty much the entirety of judaism, islan, hinduism, budhism, etc doesn't even know this is a discussion point.

Oh? I think the ‘nones’ might disagree.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Again, the million dollar question is could Joseph have performed this feat on his own? Especially at this stage of his life.

.
Excellent point. How did Joseph go from that odd kid who always sat on his porch picking his banjo and his only interaction with the outside world was if some city slicker mosied on by with a guitar and they got to dueling with each other on their instruments, otherwise he didn't know to come in from the rain. And now these so-called "Mormon Critics" are now claiming that Joseph could read and write? Jeez, give us a break.

[Shulem]

Square one is arriving in Bountiful and NOT having a fire until Nephi gets his pompous ass down from the mount to give his father and brethren a new commandment which is they must build a ship and Nephi will show everyone how to do it. But first, they need to collect the ore and build a bellows. THEN, after that, lord Nephi will strike two lucky stones together to cause a spark and make a fire. At last, mom can have a bath and Nephi's wife can wash her privates properly.

What's wrong with this story, MG? Explain it to me in your own words.

Anachronisms and anomalies are in the Book of Mormon.

Which serves to prove it was written by men and of men. The book is NOT divine, it's a con. The church refuses to broadcast and discuss the anachronisms and anomalies. The Church only promotes the faith promoting general overview -- a narrative that promotes faith.

This is how your church shows what happened:

for the space of many days







NOW, click the video link and watch how the Church lies about how the real story that enfolded in the Book of Mormon is falsely shown to promote faith:

Lehi's family gathers around a campfire

[Shulem]

NOW, click the video link and watch how the Church lies about how the real story that enfolded in the Book of Mormon is falsely shown to promote faith:

Lehi's family gathers around a campfire

Who struck stones together to make that campfire?

[Shulem]

But I believe the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be. A gift from Heaven to those in our day and time to testify of Jesus Christ, the divine destiny and purpose of creation, and that God works His will and oversees his works in a world created as a testing/proving ground for His children.

Shove it. Mormonism is all about lying and distorting truth. Mormons never could simply just tell the truth. Since day one, it's all lies.

Those lies continue today.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

iStone > can’t transcribe unless the words are as exactly shown

MG > aNaChRoNiSmS wArTs n AlL!!

-_-

Also, MG:

jOsEpH sMiTh CoUlDn’T wRiTe ThIs bY hImSeLf!

Critics:

Yeah, no crap.

Around and around we go, MG doesn’t read, and it shows!

- Doc