The Church and Freemasonry

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Dr. Shades
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by Dr. Shades »

Why didn't you lose faith in Mormonism when you found out Joseph Smith ripped off blue lodge masonry?
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
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latterdaytemplar
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by latterdaytemplar »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:32 am
Thanks!

Do you believe there is any relationship/connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony?
Yes; however, that relationship/connection is quite limited and superficial, even when looking at the earliest known versions of the ceremony that Brigham Young had standardized.

I say "limited and superficial" because similarities have only to do with how things are taught, but nothing to do with what things are taught, why things are taught, or in what light things are taught.

Joseph Smith Jr (Joseph Smith)—and later perhaps Brigham Young—adopted elements from the Masonic teaching model (e.g., concepts of theatrical presentation, of gestures for tokens, of illustrative symbols, etc.) and adapted them to:
  • teach the Church's doctrine concerning our divine origin/potential as God's children.
  • be a ceremonial vehicle for us to make covenants with God to keep His commandments.
No such doctrine and no such covenants are had in Masonry. In fact, the subject matter, context, and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony wholly differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry.

If I were to become a teacher in, say, history, and I adopted from a teacher of mathematics (or some other subject different from mine) 1) similar teaching methods and 2) a similar way to convey to my students what their grades were, then we'd be looking at a situation similar to how Masonry influenced how things are taught in the Church's temple endowment ceremony.

(Admins/mods, I tried to focus the following description on teaching methods only. If you feel that this is still too detailed for the temple endowment ceremony, then let me know and I will happily change it. Or, if you decide to take it down, I can omit it in a repost.)

Today these similarities are far fewer than in Joseph and Brigham's day. For example, the degree ceremonies of Masonry each have a lecture at the end summarizing everything that the candidate experienced during the ceremony; the temple endowment used to do a summary towards the end as well—prior to 1990, Church leadership changed it so that the lecture was only given when someone was being endowed for the first time and dropped when only proxies were in attendance, but in 1990 it was dropped completely (along with a few other similar teaching methods, such as symbolic penalties, part of a particular physical gesture, etc.).
"… Behold, we will end the conflict."
—Captain Moroni (Alma 44:10)

Whatever conflicts that you come across in life, they can be beaten. Adopt Captain Moroni's attitude: be of the disposition to end the conflict, and then act on that disposition.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by latterdaytemplar »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:47 am
Do you have any opinion on the significant number of changes that have been made to the Temple ceremonies?
I'm kind of disappointed about it, to be honest. I would love to have gone through the original temple endowment ceremony. I feel that it would have been an easier way for me to learn than how it is now.

But, then, the Lord's way and not my way.
"… Behold, we will end the conflict."
—Captain Moroni (Alma 44:10)

Whatever conflicts that you come across in life, they can be beaten. Adopt Captain Moroni's attitude: be of the disposition to end the conflict, and then act on that disposition.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by latterdaytemplar »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:54 am
Why didn't you lose faith in Mormonism when you found out Joseph Smith ripped off blue lodge masonry?
I did not come to that conclusion (although one of the reasons why I joined Masonry was to confront that rumor). See my response to Fence Sitter for more details:
latterdaytemplar wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:27 am
Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:32 am
Thanks!

Do you believe there is any relationship/connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony?
Yes; however, that relationship/connection is quite limited and superficial, even when looking at the earliest known versions of the ceremony that Brigham Young had standardized.

I say "limited and superficial" because similarities have only to do with how things are taught, but nothing to do with what things are taught, why things are taught, or in what light things are taught.

Joseph Smith Jr (Joseph Smith)—and later perhaps Brigham Young—adopted elements from the Masonic teaching model (e.g., concepts of theatrical presentation, of gestures for tokens, of illustrative symbols, etc.) and adapted them to:
  • teach the Church's doctrine concerning our divine origin/potential as God's children.
  • be a ceremonial vehicle for us to make covenants with God to keep His commandments.
No such doctrine and no such covenants are had in Masonry. In fact, the subject matter, context, and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony wholly differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry.

If I were to become a teacher in, say, history, and I adopted from a teacher of mathematics (or some other subject different from mine) 1) similar teaching methods and 2) a similar way to convey to my students what their grades were, then we'd be looking at a situation similar to how Masonry influenced how things are taught in the Church's temple endowment ceremony.

(Admins/mods, I tried to focus the following description on teaching methods only. If you feel that this is still too detailed for the temple endowment ceremony, then let me know and I will happily change it. Or, if you decide to take it down, I can omit it in a repost.)

Today these similarities are far fewer than in Joseph and Brigham's day. For example, the degree ceremonies of Masonry each have a lecture at the end summarizing everything that the candidate experienced during the ceremony; the temple endowment used to do a summary towards the end as well—prior to 1990, Church leadership changed it so that the lecture was only given when someone was being endowed for the first time and dropped when only proxies were in attendance, but in 1990 it was dropped completely (along with a few other similar teaching methods, such as symbolic penalties, part of a particular physical gesture, etc.).
"… Behold, we will end the conflict."
—Captain Moroni (Alma 44:10)

Whatever conflicts that you come across in life, they can be beaten. Adopt Captain Moroni's attitude: be of the disposition to end the conflict, and then act on that disposition.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by Fence Sitter »

Do you believe the LDS ceremony represents actual historical events & or people?
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by Physics Guy »

The idea that Smith adopted the format of Masonic ritual, but did not copy the content, does sound plausible to me. It always seemed a bit too big a risk for him to have just copied everything, when there were enough Masons around for the copying to have been obvious. The Masons would probably also have considered that to have been a betrayal of their secrets, and if Smith was just a con-man on the make then he would hardly have wanted to burn his bridges with the Masons that badly.

I can see that Smith might not have had many other examples, besides Masonic rituals, for the kind of thing he wanted to do. Or perhaps he only even got the idea of instituting anything like this because he was impressed by Masonic rituals and wanted to make his own version.

Perhaps the similarities between Mormon and Masonic ceremonies didn't seem as significant to anyone in Smith's day as they do now, because people didn't have as broad a perspective on how many kinds of religious or social rituals could be possible. There were Christian sacraments, and there were the lodges, and that was about it as far as most people in Smith's time and place knew. If you had pointed out to an early Mormon that their endowment ceremony was similar to a Masonic rite, they'd probably have said something to the effect of, "Well, yeah, they're both initiations. Duh!" You're not surprised that someone else is wearing exactly the same color that you are when your clothing industry only has one kind of dye.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by George MillerPM »

latterdaytemplar wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:27 am
Yes; however, that relationship/connection is quite limited and superficial, even when looking at the earliest known versions of the ceremony that Brigham Young had standardized.

I say "limited and superficial" because similarities have only to do with how things are taught, but nothing to do with what things are taught, why things are taught, or in what light things are taught.

Joseph Smith Jr (Joseph Smith)—and later perhaps Brigham Young—adopted elements from the Masonic teaching model (e.g., concepts of theatrical presentation, of gestures for tokens, of illustrative symbols, etc.) and adapted them to:
  • teach the Church's doctrine concerning our divine origin/potential as God's children.
  • be a ceremonial vehicle for us to make covenants with God to keep His commandments.
No such doctrine and no such covenants are had in Masonry. In fact, the subject matter, context, and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony wholly differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry.

If I were to become a teacher in, say, history, and I adopted from a teacher of mathematics (or some other subject different from mine) 1) similar teaching methods and 2) a similar way to convey to my students what their grades were, then we'd be looking at a situation similar to how Masonry influenced how things are taught in the Church's temple endowment ceremony.
Dear Brother- It is good to see a fellow Mormon-Mason on the board responding to messages. I hope my dear brother will pardon a cautious whisper of good council in a brother's ear if I disagree on a minor matter of the interrelationship between the the Mormon and Masonic ceremonies. LatterDayTemplar seems here to be emphasizing that the similarities in Masonic and Mormon ritual are due solely to the method of teaching and not the content. In following this mode of thought, LatterDayTemplar seems to be echoing the church's latest discussions on the subject which can be found HERE. However, on this matter I profoundly disagree. While this may be true of Freemasonry in the present, the common view of British and American Freemasons as expressed by the most prominent Masonic writers of the first half of the 19th was that the ritual and the interpretation of the ritual was profoundly religious. In fact the most common epithet used by Freemasons to describe their institution was "The Handmaid of Religion".

To understand Masonic views of their own ritual in the early 1800s one needs to study how Mason's interpreted their ritual. While there is no single interpretation of Masonic ritual, and each brother is admonished and encouraged interpret the Masonic ritual for himself, there were common ways of interpreting the ritual in the early 1800s. For example the Masonic writer who served as the Grand Chaplain of New York had the following to say about the first degree of Freemasonry - The Entered Apprentice.
NOT only are the several Masonic lectures replete with moral and religious instruction, but their very order and successions are sources improvement, and afford great consolation and encouragement to the good man, when viewed in the proper light. The first degree in Masonry, naturally suggests that the state of moral darkness, which begloomed our world. On the apostacy of our common parent, not a gleam of light was left to irradiate and cheer his disponding mind. To his surprise and amazement, he found himself in total obscurity, as to those future and interesting scenes, on which he was entering. Soon, however, to his inexpressible joy, the first kind promise was made. This promise, though but a single ray, afforded much consolation. Although the true light now began to shine, yet how faint were its beams compared with the bright and meridian splendor, afterwards to illuminate the mortal world.

Adam, therefore, was, in a comparative sense, still in darkness, as to those great displays and wonderful manifestations of divine love and complacency, which were in due time made. Such is the very nature of the first degree, that every observing candidate is led to view his moral blindness, he is to consider emblematical of a state of improvement and trial. Salem Town, A System of Speculative Masonry, ASoSM, (1818) p. 75-76
Here Brother Salem Town discusses the common view that the hoodwinked candidate symbolically represented our common parent Adam who due to the fall was in darkness. He here further alludes to the symbolic bringing to light of the candidate at the altar of Masonry as symbolic of father Adam who was was given a promise after his transgression in the garden which brought him again to light.

It was not just Salem Town that viewed the ritual in these symbolic terms. Samuel Woodworth wrote and extensive set of articles in the American Masonic Register and Ladies and Gentleman's Magazine that ran under the title The Christian Mason. He had the following interpretation of the Entered Apprentice degree.
When the young candidate for the society of "just men made perfect" has been thus duly prepared , (by a state of deep humiliation) to enter on the thorny path of repentance, he is imperceptibly led on by the Lord, through the instrumentality of his ministering angels, until his stubborn knees are taught to bend at the footstool of Divine Mercy. For the first time, he now seriously and ardently prays to be enlightened in the path of his duty. He had not hitherto supplicated for spiritual light, because he had been ignorant that he stood in need of it. He now feels nothing else is so desirable. He puts his trust in the Great Author and Fountain of light, as whose alter he enters into a covenant of obedience, and from who a bright emanation soon bursts upon his intellectual vision. ...

From these few observations, it will be readily perceived by every truly enlightened mason, the the entered apprentice's degree, is a beautiful figure and representation of the first state of regeneration. ...

But the obligation to which he voluntarily subscribes, in this state, must not be forgotten, or passed over in silence. Prostrate in the dust, he confesses, with the deepest humility, that he is by nature, nothing but evil, and that of himself, independent of God, he can do nothing. But having been now instructed that he is continually and perpetually endowed with power from the Lord to co-operate with Him in the great work of reformation and regeneration, he looks to Heaven alone, for a continuation and increase of this ability. He therefore, enters into a solemn covenant with the author of his being, in whose holy name he promises that all those nature, earthly, and sensual affections, which tend to destroy his ability, shall not be permitted to intrude on the mysteries of the spiritual temple about to be erected within him, where by its sanctity would be profaned, and its jewels stolen. ...

Who then cannot see that a correct and wonderful analogy exists between the creation of the world, and the recreation, or regeneration of the soul? Every enlightened mason, who has studied the sublime mysteries of the order, knows this to be the case; and were it compatible with the laws of the order, we could render it clear, in all its particulars and modifications, to every enlightened reader.
Woodworth, The Christian Mason No. V, 1821
Here Woodworth relates the circumambulation of the blindfolded candidate around the lodge as symbolic of the ministering angels guiding the candidate under the direction of the Grand Architect of the Universe in the first degree. When the candidate is set before the altar he makes a covenant with God for his own enlightened regeneration. According to Woodworth, this is the obvious interpretation Masonic ritual to the "enlightened Mason".

While I understand that the church's stance is that Joseph Smith ONLY borrowed the teaching method and NO content from Masonry for the Mormon temple ceremony, such a belief is not tenable based on the historical record of how Masons interpreted their own ritual in the first half of the 19th century. In fact, a close examination reveals that Joseph Smith was following the mainstream view of Freemasonry that the rituals had religious and spiritual messages that would lead them on the path to the Celestial Lodge above. Smith and his successors held similar views of the role of Freemasonry as their Masonic contemporaries.
Masonry, which embraces all the graces and perfections of holiness; unites mankind in the strictest bonds amity, as children of a common parents; and incessantly urges them to ask that they may have, to seek that they shall find, and to knock that the may be opened unto them. And this is the conclusion that Masonry draws from all her illustrations: he who practices all the virtues thus recommended in FAITH, will rejoice in HOPE, be in perfect CHARITY with all mankind, and finally receive a PASSWORD into the Grand Lodge above, where peace, order, and harmony eternally preside. (George Oliver, Antiquities of Freemasonry, 1823)
I hope my Masonic brother will not take offense to my minor disagreement.

Fraternally Yours,
George Miller PM

Master Mason (3 Degree)
Past Master Ann Arbor Fraternity Lodge #262
Michigan Lodge of Research
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Scottish Rite Lodge of Research

Mormon Expressions (144a)- Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 1
Mormon Expressions(144b)- Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 2
Mormon Expressions(145a)- Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 1
Mormon Expressions(145b)- Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 2
Mormon Expressions (149)- Mormonism and Masonry part 3: The Book of Abraham and Nauvoo
Mormon Expressions (152)- Mormonism and Masonry part 4: Joseph Smith and Beyond
FMH Podcast (#24) - The Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Part Two
Last edited by George MillerPM on Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:33 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by George MillerPM »

Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:49 pm
Perhaps the similarities between Mormon and Masonic ceremonies didn't seem as significant to anyone in Smith's day as they do now, because people didn't have as broad a perspective on how many kinds of religious or social rituals could be possible. There were Christian sacraments, and there were the lodges, and that was about it as far as most people in Smith's time and place knew. If you had pointed out to an early Mormon that their endowment ceremony was similar to a Masonic rite, they'd probably have said something to the effect of, "Well, yeah, they're both initiations. Duh!" You're not surprised that someone else is wearing exactly the same color that you are when your clothing industry only has one kind of dye.
Physics Guy- As it turns out, multiple Mormons commented on the similarity in the Mormon and Masonic rituals during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Joseph Smith was building on his brethren's experience in Blue Lodge Masonry and making the implicit religious content explicit.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by latterdaytemplar »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:00 pm
Do you believe the LDS ceremony represents actual historical events & or people?
I believe that Adam and Eve were actual people (I personally subscribe to the Promethean Adam hypothesis), as well as all of the other personages represented.

However, aside from those details specifically described in the Standard Works, I do not believe that the interactions depicted literally happened and were only figurative/allegorical (for example, interactions between Peter/James/John and Adam/Eve).
"… Behold, we will end the conflict."
—Captain Moroni (Alma 44:10)

Whatever conflicts that you come across in life, they can be beaten. Adopt Captain Moroni's attitude: be of the disposition to end the conflict, and then act on that disposition.
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Re: The Church and Freemasonry

Post by latterdaytemplar »

George MillerPM wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:12 pm
Dear Brother- It is good to see a fellow Mormon-Mason on the board responding to messages.
I'm happy to see you here as well. I have had the pleasure of listening to your interviews on Mormon Expressions and I very much enjoyed them.
George MillerPM wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:12 pm
I hope my dear brother will pardon a cautious whisper of good council in a brother's ear if I disagree on a minor matter of the interrelationship between the the Mormon and Masonic ceremonies.
No worries at all. I have come across a few fellow Latter-day Saint Masons who have voiced disagreements with me as well, but we have always been able to remain civil in our disagreements and to maintain/foster the respective friendships/brotherhoods between us.
George MillerPM wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:12 pm
LatterDayTemplar seems here to be emphasizing that the similarities in Masonic and Mormon ritual are due solely to the method of teaching and not the content. In following this mode of thought, LatterDayTemplar seems to be echoing the church's latest discussions on the subject which can be found HERE.
You are correct for the most part (there is a small handful of things in the Church's video with which I disagree) in your representation of my mode of thought; although I would note that my views predate the Church's production of that video and of its essay.

I appreciate you referencing Brothers Town and Woodworth; I had not previously read their comments and you provide some great context as to how many might have interpreted Masonic ritual during that time. However, even if half of the Masons at that time held this or similar opinions and interpretations concerning Masonic ritual, this would not have had any bearing on Masonry itself unless such opinions/interpretations were adopted by a regular Grand Lodge as a part of the ritual or codified elsewhere in its constitution, by-laws, etc. I am personally not aware of any American Grand Lodge that ever mentioned in its ritual Adam, his Fall, or his reception of light.

Concerning George Oliver's quote, it seems to me that he is speaking to values that happen to be shared between Masonry and any of the Abrahamic faiths (given that a common parentage, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity, etc. would have been the prevailing values of society at that time in the first place) and speaks only metaphorically concerning the "password into the Grand Lodge above."

That all stated, if I am wrong, then I am wrong. That's not a problem for me; but, as of right now, I still do not see any similarities in subject matter (doctrine/tenets, covenants/obligations), context, or purpose between the ceremonies of the two institutions themselves, even going back to the ceremonies used in the 1800s.

I hope that you will not take offense to my own disagreement with some of your contribution here. Agreement or not, you taught me a few valuable things that I'll be looking into further.

I'm glad to know you now and hope to be able to interact with you more (and, in time, perhaps to pick your brain on some other things).

Sincerely and fraternally,
latterdaytemplar, Walmart

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"… Behold, we will end the conflict."
—Captain Moroni (Alma 44:10)

Whatever conflicts that you come across in life, they can be beaten. Adopt Captain Moroni's attitude: be of the disposition to end the conflict, and then act on that disposition.
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