What Do People Here Believe?

[huckelberry]

......

I no longer come from the same place I did years ago. People change. I came to feel/know differently than I did when I was in that dark place.

I chose to believe in God. Everything else then began to fall in line. Do I have questions? Sure. Don’t we all. Do I have faith in the restoration and all that this entails? Yes.

And this is where we differ. I came back from the abyss. And it took a LOT of effort and patience. And balance.

.....,
MG

What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce?
- Doc

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was. He experienced that fear as an abyss he pulled away from.(and may not wish to review more deeply) I think as far as that goes he is telling the truth he sees about himself. Of course many people here may have looked deeper into the question. MG avoids specifics so that is unclear.

I suspect a number of people here think that MG's abyss can be found to be made of fear beyond which a solid and realistic foundation can be found if explored further.

[Marcus]

What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce?
- Doc

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was. He experienced that fear as an abyss he pulled away from.(and may not wish to review more deeply) I think as far as that goes he is telling the truth he sees about himself. Of course many people here may have looked deeper into the question. MG avoids specifics so that is unclear.

I suspect a number of people here think that MG's abyss can be found to be made of fear beyond which a solid and realistic foundation can be found if explored further.

I think you’re right. That repressed fear seems to bring him here repeatedly to express what he wants to be seen as disdain but which comes across as regret.

“There are some people who are so blighted by their past, so warped by experience and the pull of that silken cord, that they never free themselves of the shadows that live in the time machine ...

And if there is a kind thought due them, it may be found contained in the words of the late Gerald Kersh, who wrote: ...

‘there are men whom one hates until a certain moment when one sees, through a chink in their armour, the writhing of something nailed down and in torment.’ “

Harlan Ellison

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce?
- Doc

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was.

Huh? He said exactly this:

I went through thinking/knowing that all I had been taught and what I had learned growing up in regards to my faith was a fabricated farce.

He declined to offer specifics because there are, or were, none. He was lying about the above quote. It’s a gambit a troll uses to gain sympathy when they’re dishonestly evangelizing. He’s been doing this for 25 years. I’m surprised you fell for his games.

- Doc

[Marcus]

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was.

Huh? He said exactly this:

I went through thinking/knowing that all I had been taught and what I had learned growing up in regards to my faith was a fabricated farce.

He declined to offer specifics because there are, or were, none. He was lying about the above quote. It’s a gambit a troll uses to gain sympathy when they’re dishonestly evangelizing. He’s been doing this for 25 years. I’m surprised you fell for his games.

- Doc

So, to clarify, you think he said that the same way a preacher might dramatically say “I’ve been where you are. I’ve experienced the despair of the night… and then… I was saved!!!” etc. etc. etc.

It’s an interesting point. If he didn’t, he’s a troll, like you said. But if he did, and THEN decided he couldn’t survive disagreeing with his family, he could also say the same. However, there is very little consistency in his story, so I lean toward your interpretation. Just an lds troll with the hubris to think he’s better than any non-lds person.

[MG 2.0]

What parts of Mormonism were a fabricated farce?
- Doc

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was. He experienced that fear as an abyss he pulled away from.(and may not wish to review more deeply) I think as far as that goes he is telling the truth he sees about himself. Of course many people here may have looked deeper into the question. MG avoids specifics so that is unclear.

I suspect a number of people here think that MG's abyss can be found to be made of fear beyond which a solid and realistic foundation can be found if explored further.

Hi Huck, overall I do agree with you in saying that I don’t think the CofJCofLDS is a fabricated farce. I do have a certain degree of confidence that it is what it purports to be and carries God’s stamp of approval, so to speak. It has His Priesthood Authority to perform saving ordinances being on the top part of the list. Knowledge of the nature and purpose of life and our relationship to our Maker being up there too. Along with other ‘truths of eternity’.

I also realize and accept that it is an organization made up of human beings prone to miscalculation and error. There are doctrines and practices that were not clearly implemented and/or fully understood during the restoration. And that restoration is ongoing. The ways of God and man aren’t always, in every instance, moving in tandem.

But the overall narrative and theology connected with the restoration and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as modern day scripture and witness of Christ and His gospel ring true and make sense to me. I’ve referred to the artist Monet before on this board. His paintings are made of many individual splotches of paint. Each splotch doesn’t seem to have much beauty on its own. But when observed from a distance the fuller message and meaning of the paintings by this artist are beautiful to behold.

The tapestry of the LDS church is made from many individual humans trying to seek and understand God’s will, in my opinion. These individuals were the conduit through whom lost truths that had either been corrupted or lost were restored. That is my hope. That is my belief. I see a grander purpose and meaning in the church other than its organizational structure and day to day operations. I see it as the Kingdom of God on earth put here to bring souls to Christ. Including its leaders. Coming fully to Christ is a lifelong process. The early Brethren with all their faults and predispositions leaning this way and that were ‘fast tracked’, so to speak, in learning the practices and doctrines of the church.

They weren’t always completely successful. I think God is cool with that. The problem is some/many people aren’t. They expect those called of God to somehow be better than everyone else. But leaders are humans. They make mistakes. But I do believe they are intent on overcoming their own personal flaws through repentance. I do sincerely believe they seek to do and follow the will of the Lord.

Initially when learning about the so-called ‘warts’ in early church history I, along with others, saw these warts as being reason to disbelieve and found myself in a place where I asked myself how God could allow a travesty like this to happen. That is, how could He allow a church making claims of ‘the one and only true church’ to even exist? But then I thought, well, you have Scientology and all the rest of the stuff out there. It was this development that caused me…along with other variables/factors…to come to a point where I doubted the existence of God. Science and evolution played a part also.

Long story made short. That all changed, for the most part, as I stuck with the church and didn’t bail. I continued to learn. As I did so many of my original concerns and those I met along the way dissipated and became less important as I moved forward seeking faith as I found reason to reestablish a certain degree of belief/trust in God and His prophets.

I will say that fear hasn’t really been a driving force. I was and continue to be open to whatever the truth is regards to reality and the cosmos, etc. Truth has always been my primary motivator to continue searching.

I do feel a certain amount of sadness for those that may not stay on the ‘good ship Mormon’ and jump off the boat prematurely. For those that truly believe that they have found the truth and/or greater meaning out of Mormonism? Cool. As long as they are being truly honest in heart with themselves and their own sense of ‘moral authority’ and/or God. I think God makes some allowance for that.

I don’t think, however, that God can look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. We will all be judged by our works. Of course that is my opinion based upon the belief I have in a personal God.

I think I’ll stop there for now.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Also, I think I’m a little salty for what he did to Grindael, who passed shortly after MG abusing him. So I don’t have any more patience for MG’s trolling and lies.

- Doc

I think I can see you have a point here Doc.

You are going on his word? Oh my.

By the way, I see you bypassed my rather detailed response to you. That’s OK. Just kind of weird that you would hop on the fabricated bandwagon that some folks have manufactured and respond with a short and sweet “I agree!” rather than interacting with a rather substantive post.

Truthfully, I was interested in hearing what you might have to say. Typically you have some interesting comments that are fairly well thought out.

Oh well, it is what it is.

I think I clearly laid out a rather concise and all encompassing “Mormon Story”. But since it doesn’t align with an outcome that some of the more vocal ones here might see as being the only viable alternative when one ‘learns the truth’ it will be either maligned or ignored.

Dog pile time.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Doc , I gather from MG comments that he does not regard anything in Mormonism as a fabricated farce now though he made reference to once fearing it was. He experienced that fear as an abyss he pulled away from.(and may not wish to review more deeply) I think as far as that goes he is telling the truth he sees about himself. Of course many people here may have looked deeper into the question. MG avoids specifics so that is unclear.

I suspect a number of people here think that MG's abyss can be found to be made of fear beyond which a solid and realistic foundation can be found if explored further.

Hi Huck, overall I do agree with you in saying that I don’t think the CofJCofLDS is a fabricated farce. I do have a certain degree of confidence that it is what it purports to be and carries God’s stamp of approval, so to speak. It has His Priesthood Authority to perform saving ordinances being on the top part of the list. Knowledge of the nature and purpose of life and our relationship to our Maker being up there too. Along with other ‘truths of eternity’.

I also realize and accept that it is an organization made up of human beings prone to miscalculation and error. There are doctrines and practices that were not clearly implemented and/or fully understood during the restoration. And that restoration is ongoing. The ways of God and man aren’t always, in every instance, moving in tandem.

But the overall narrative and theology connected with the restoration and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as modern day scripture and witness of Christ and His gospel ring true and make sense to me. I’ve referred to the artist Monet before on this board. His paintings are made of many individual splotches of paint. Each splotch doesn’t seem to have much beauty on its own. But when observed from a distance the fuller message and meaning of the paintings by this artist are beautiful to behold.

The tapestry of the LDS church is made from many individual humans trying to seek and understand God’s will, in my opinion. These individuals were the conduit through whom lost truths that had either been corrupted or lost were restored. That is my hope. That is my belief. I see a grander purpose and meaning in the church other than its organizational structure and day to day operations. I see it as the Kingdom of God on earth put here to bring souls to Christ. Including its leaders. Coming fully to Christ is a lifelong process. The early Brethren with all their faults and predispositions leaning this way and that were ‘fast tracked’, so to speak, in learning the practices and doctrines of the church.

They weren’t always completely successful. I think God is cool with that. The problem is some/many people aren’t. They expect those called of God to somehow be better than everyone else. But leaders are humans. They make mistakes. But I do believe they are intent on overcoming their own personal flaws through repentance. I do sincerely believe they seek to do and follow the will of the Lord.

Initially when learning about the so-called ‘warts’ in early church history I, along with others, saw these warts as being reason to disbelieve and found myself in a place where I asked myself how God could allow a travesty like this to happen. That is, how could He allow a church making claims of ‘the one and only true church’ to even exist? But then I thought, well, you have Scientology and all the rest of the stuff out there. It was this development that caused me…along with other variables/factors…to come to a point where I doubted the existence of God. Science and evolution played a part also.

Long story made short. That all changed, for the most part, as I stuck with the church and didn’t bail. I continued to learn. As I did so many of my original concerns and those I met along the way dissipated and became less important as I moved forward seeking faith as I found reason to reestablish a certain degree of belief/trust in God and His prophets.

I will say that fear hasn’t really been a driving force. I was and continue to be open to whatever the truth is regards to reality and the cosmos, etc. Truth has always been my primary motivator to continue searching.

I do feel a certain amount of sadness for those that may not stay on the ‘good ship Mormon’ and jump off the boat prematurely. For those that truly believe that they have found the truth and/or greater meaning out of Mormonism? Cool. As long as they are being truly honest in heart with themselves and their own sense of ‘moral authority’ and/or God. I think God makes some allowance for that.

I don’t think, however, that God can look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. We will all be judged by our works. Of course that is my opinion based upon the belief I have in a personal God.

I think I’ll stop there for now.

Regards,
MG

Huck, did I clear things up for you?

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

I think I can see you have a point here Doc.

You are going on his word? Oh my.

By the way, I see you bypassed my rather detailed response to you. That’s OK. Just kind of weird that you would hop on the fabricated bandwagon that some folks have manufactured and respond with a short and sweet “I agree!” rather than interacting with a rather substantive post.

Truthfully, I was interested in hearing what you might have to say. Typically you have some interesting comments that are fairly well thought out.

Oh well, it is what it is.

I think I clearly laid out a rather concise and all encompassing “Mormon Story”. But since it doesn’t align with an outcome that some of the more vocal ones here might see as being the only viable alternative when one ‘learns the truth’ it will be either maligned or ignored.

Dog pile time.

Regards,
MG

MG, I did not back away from my statement that I am inclined to believe that your description of your beliefs is a fair way of describing how you see them. I think you are tolerably honest.

Your observations about human fallibility make a certain sense. If I was inclined to believe the LDS story that consideration could help with certain mistakes. I do not have any inclination to think of polygamy as divine instruction put in action with mistakes. In general I do not see the LDS church as divinely founded so find little interaction with your comments other than accepting that they are your views.

I think all Christendom is struggling with human mistakes in the journey to fullfill the hope opened by Jesus. I see no reason to think there is one church with Jesus authority.

[MG 2.0]

I see no reason to think there is one church with Jesus authority.

That’s not uncommon. I too believe that God looks at the ‘priesthood of believers’ with approbation and appreciation for their good works growing/maintaining the community of Christian discipleship throughout the world.

I’m also in line with President Hinckley when he invited those of other faiths to come and receive more good in the CofJCofLDS. Or something to that effect. I think he was referring to the Priesthood authority to administer essential ordinance of baptism and also the temple ordinances.

Thanks for your response.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Hubris and testimonials aside, getting back to the topic:

All atheists and theists are agnostic in a sense. They aren't different sets of the same category, as I see it. Agnostic is a category defining knowledge or lack thereof. Theist or atheist is a category defining belief. I tend to think no one really knows. I'd see myself as an atheist, and more particularly an agnostic person who doesn't see good reason for a god concept in the world--and definitely no evidence or rational reason to believe at this stage. Of course it's all pending for me.

DS,

This is very famlilar to me.

I'd be happy to find reason to jump on board any truth claim that makes sense.

If you're looking for a truth claim that makes sense, this particular author has a tremendously compelling way of making sense on the God question: David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God. And I don't say that because of any Latter-day Saint bias--Hart's ideas about God are very different from those you heard at church, and probably different from any you've encountered.

If I'd read this book when I was an atheist, it would have been a complete shocker. Well worth it.

Don

Don

I didn’t realize this was the post that started dastardly stem’s very interesting topic, found here.