Conservative Judge Speaks Out

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honorentheos
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by honorentheos »

Morley wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:22 am
In countries around the world liberty and liberalism are threatened by authoritarian populism on both right and left. And here in the United States the Republican Party is increasingly focused on nationalism, protectionism, and using state power to hurt its enemies, while on the left there are increasingly open socialists and an increasing illiberal attitude toward free speech and dissenting ideas. In that environment, as Andy Craig wrote recently at Lib​er​tar​i​an​ism​.org, it makes sense for libertarians to recognize our connections with our “cousins” in the liberal family who “share a commitment to certain fundamental rights—personal, procedural, and political guarantees—which are above and beyond the give and take of more mundane policy agendas.” That might include Buckley‐​Reagan conservatives, free‐​speech liberals, and all the people who are fiscally conservative and socially tolerant, who appreciate the benefits of capitalism as well as the benefits of openness and diversity.
Thanks for posting this, Morley. I found myself wondering why the last description lacks a meaningful category. Is there no constituency to be found in representing people who are, "fiscally conservative and socially tolerant, who appreciate the benefits of capitalism as well as the benefits of openness and diversity"? Or is it just too difficult to rally such behind a modern political campaign? Have we been shaped into partisans with extremist views because partisans and extremists are easier to manipulate?
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Manetho »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 am
Illiberalism manifests just as readily on the political left. It manifests on this board just as often by those opposed to the illiberal nationalism in the form of illiberal socialism.
I challenge this assertion. The usage of the term "socialism" is unhelpfully broad. A sizable number of young leftists will call themselves "socialists" in the vein of Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but, when pressed for details, most of them will say their goal is something like the social democracy found in Scandinavian countries. One may disagree with that goal, but I think it is profoundly wrong to see it as a threat to people's freedoms on par with the Republican Party's attacks on democracy. A small number of leftists will go further and attempt imbecilic defenses of communism, but such people have no political traction; I'm not aware of any avowed communists holding elected office anywhere in the United States. In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by ¥akaSteelhead »

honorentheos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Thanks for posting this, Morley. I found myself wondering why the last description lacks a meaningful category. Is there no constituency to be found in representing people who are, "fiscally conservative and socially tolerant, who appreciate the benefits of capitalism as well as the benefits of openness and diversity"? Or is it just too difficult to rally such behind a modern political campaign? Have we been shaped into partisans with extremist views because partisans and extremists are easier to manipulate?
Classical liberalism?
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Binger »

Manetho wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:03 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:39 am
Illiberalism manifests just as readily on the political left. It manifests on this board just as often by those opposed to the illiberal nationalism in the form of illiberal socialism.
I challenge this assertion. The usage of the term "socialism" is unhelpfully broad. A sizable number of young leftists will call themselves "socialists" in the vein of Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but, when pressed for details, most of them will say their goal is something like the social democracy found in Scandinavian countries. One may disagree with that goal, but I think it is profoundly wrong to see it as a threat to people's freedoms on par with the Republican Party's attacks on democracy. A small number of leftists will go further and attempt imbecilic defenses of communism, but such people have no political traction; I'm not aware of any avowed communists holding elected office anywhere in the United States. In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
I challenge this assertion. The entire argument hinges on new definitions or loose definitions.
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Morley
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Morley »

Binger wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Manetho wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:03 pm


I challenge this assertion. The usage of the term "socialism" is unhelpfully broad. A sizable number of young leftists will call themselves "socialists" in the vein of Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but, when pressed for details, most of them will say their goal is something like the social democracy found in Scandinavian countries. One may disagree with that goal, but I think it is profoundly wrong to see it as a threat to people's freedoms on par with the Republican Party's attacks on democracy. A small number of leftists will go further and attempt imbecilic defenses of communism, but such people have no political traction; I'm not aware of any avowed communists holding elected office anywhere in the United States. In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
I challenge this assertion. The entire argument hinges on new definitions or loose definitions.
Make your case.
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Vēritās »

Binger wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Manetho wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:03 pm


I challenge this assertion. The usage of the term "socialism" is unhelpfully broad. A sizable number of young leftists will call themselves "socialists" in the vein of Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but, when pressed for details, most of them will say their goal is something like the social democracy found in Scandinavian countries. One may disagree with that goal, but I think it is profoundly wrong to see it as a threat to people's freedoms on par with the Republican Party's attacks on democracy. A small number of leftists will go further and attempt imbecilic defenses of communism, but such people have no political traction; I'm not aware of any avowed communists holding elected office anywhere in the United States. In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
I challenge this assertion. The entire argument hinges on new definitions or loose definitions.
Maybe you can define socialism for us and then show us where prominent folks on the Left support such a thing? I know the ones most accused of being socialists aren't really socialists at all (Bernie and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez).
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Binger »

Vēritās wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:55 pm
Binger wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:31 pm


I challenge this assertion. The entire argument hinges on new definitions or loose definitions.
Maybe you can define socialism for us and then show us where prominent folks on the Left support such a thing? I know the ones most accused of being socialists aren't really socialists at all (Bernie and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez).
Sure. See my previous posts, K.

The specific assertion that I was challenging, however, was this one.
Manetho wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:03 pm
In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
The experiment was a success. The argument hinges on a reclassification of refusal, accept, Democrat, political victory, mainstream and political right. That, or it was all just hyperbole and an exaggeration and all the other parts of the argument are dismantled by this particular assertion.

I am the liberal one here. These illiberal moves to shut down speech, cancel opposition, support governments that openly ban opposition, control the media and have witch hunts are contrary to liberalism. I support a liberal democracy. I even support a liberal DiscussMormonism.com. But, clearly, the illiberal forces are greater than me.
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Chap »

I hope to goodness that we are not going to have another endless argument about "what is the definition of X?".

Definitions mean something useful in maths, in legal vocabulary, and similar intellectual disciplines. In dealing with the complexities of social life and discourse, the usage of words is flexible, vague and in many cases rapidly evolving. The lists of senses of a word given in dictionaries are not there to tell us how we MAY use a word, but represent attempts to give us a snapshot of how words have been used in the past, and of the (often different) ways that they were being used at the time that the dictionary was compiled.

"What is Bernie Saunders' political program, and how does it hang together, and differ from the political programme of <names of other politicians>?" - interesting question. Let's discuss it.

"Is Bernie Saunders a socialist, based on 'the definition of socialism'?" - a boring and pointless way to waste one's time and generate a lot more heat than light.
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canpakes
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by canpakes »

Chap wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:06 pm
I hope to goodness that we are not going to have another endless argument about "what is the definition of X?".
Agreed. As well -
Binger wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:13 pm
Manetho wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:03 pm
In contrast, refusal to accept any Democratic political victory is fast becoming mainstream on the US political right.
The argument hinges on a reclassification of refusal, accept, Democrat, political victory, mainstream and political right.
… defining the meaning of, “refusal to accept any Democratic political victory”, seems pretty straightforward, given the many examples provided by prominent folks like our previous President, over the last two years.
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Re: Conservative Judge Speaks Out

Post by Binger »

Marine Le Pen’s Rassemblement National increased its representation from nine seats to 89. The Mélenchon coalition of ultra-leftists, communists, greens and socialists will end up with around 131 seats, up from 17 in 2017.

Macron, who warned voters in almost hysterical terms against electing extremists of the left and right, needed 289 seats for his Ensemble alliance to preserve his majority. He’s won 245, losing 154 of his deputies elected in 2017.
Macron won the presidency in April because a majority of voters thought Le Pen would be even worse. But he commands little to no affection. Now he is doomed to preside over escalating chaos as France faces a cost of living and debt crisis, a budget deficit untamed by Europe’s highest taxes, an energy crisis, crises in the schools and hospitals, and a law and order crisis, all amid the most serious European military conflict since 1945.
https://spectatorworld.com/topic/emmanu ... -complete/

Oh, look at that. Where else do you see a cost of living and debt crisis, a budget crisis, a tax crisis, an energy crisis, crises in schools and hospitals, a law crisis, an order crisis and involvement (or collusion) in the most serious European military conflict since 1945?

But hey.... as long as we reconstruct the definitions of liberal/illiberal to mean things that affirm our affiliation with something that affirms our goodness, we should be fine and and blameless.
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