Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

…The simple fact is that humanity needs God. If, as atheists assert, there is no deity in control of this universe, then it becomes those atheists' conscientious obligation to produce one. If atheists have thought things through and are yet not pessimists, then that means they must have found a way to produce such a deity, which would surprise me very much. So if you can explain to me how they have discovered how to produce God, I will admit that I am wrong and that my statement is insupportable.

KS,

Can you flesh out the highlighted bit, because it appears to be a de facto contradiction.

- Doc

[malkie]

There are three questions a deconstructionist of any belief system has to ask. Would I want to know if it is true? How would I know? And what would I do?

The question I asked God in 1976 was is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints true, but I have no idea anymore what that Church being true even means. I care much more over whether God wants me in that Church. As far as the how goes, the only way I can think of knowing is asking God if S/He does want me there and counting on God giving me an answer I can understand. What would I do? I would do whatever God wants me to do.

First you assume that you are having a conversation with God.

Then you assume that the feelings you described were the result of God "giving you an answer [you] can understand", and that he was telling you he wanted you in the LDS church.

Then you assume that since you had no recognizable "correction" from God, you are on the correct path, and where you should be.

Since you have no way of verifying any of your assumptions, I would suggest to you that you at least consider the possibility that you were talking to yourself; had a strange experience that was produced purely by your body and mind; either had no further such experiences, or had them but ignored/misinterpreted them.

Your story is more easily explained by the non-existence of your God than by his existence.

…
The simple fact is that humanity needs God. If, as atheists assert, there is no deity in control of this universe, then it becomes those atheists' conscientious obligation to produce one. If atheists have thought things through and are yet not pessimists, then that means they must have found a way to produce such a deity, which would surprise me very much. So if you can explain to me how they have discovered how to produce God, I will admit that I am wrong and that my statement is insupportable.

There was a point in this discussion at which I thought I understood what you were saying, even though I disagreed. But your assertions here are bordering on the incomprehensible.

• You claim a "simple fact" with no evidence to support it.
• You produce two "if ... then" statements for each of which the consequence does not follow from the condition.
• And then you expect someone to explain it to you.

I don't get it at all.

Edit: minor punctuation/spelling corrections

[doubtingthomas]

KevinSim,

This morning I felt something I couldn't explain. I feel someone is about to show me the way, but I don't know what that means.

[KevinSim]

(Deleted duplicate.)

[KevinSim]

The God of Mormonism is much like the cheating wife - they say one thing but reality is actually another.

First off, when I asked my question about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I wasn't praying to the God of Mormonism; I was praying to the one deity that is in control of the universe. So we're not talking about one deity among many; we're talking about the only deity there is. Secondly, I trust that deity more than I trust my wife. If my wife cheats on me, I can divorce her and marry someone else; if the one true God is cheating on us, then we're all screwed.

That is what I mean by facts versus feelings.

I tend to agree with Rene Descartes, who thought that without faith in a good God you really don't know any solid facts.

[doubtingthomas]

If my wife cheats on me, I can divorce her and marry someone else

Do you want that to happen?

[drumdude]

I tend to agree with Rene Descartes, who thought that without faith in a good God you really don't know any solid facts.

I find that a bit odd to be skeptical of an objective reality while not being skeptical that the Mormon god exists.

[KevinSim]

First, let's start with the complete quote:

DT, KevinSim may actually have received, from God, a correction to his assumption. Unfortunately the correction was in a form that KevinSim did not recognise as such, and so not only did he not even consider the possibility that he had received a correction - it went completely over his head as if it had not been a message of any sort.

What I was noting, in reply to doubtingthomas, was that (assuming for the sake of argument that your God exists) there is a possibility that you, KevinSim, do not have an infallible means of knowing when you have received a communication from that God.

Ah, so it was all hypothetical. That first statement made it sound hypothetical, but the second statement made it sound like you were asserting that something very specific had actually happened.

So when you say:

I kept that promise, and so far He hasn't corrected my assumption that that sensation was His answer.

that may only mean that you failed to recognise a communication/correction, and so are unaware that God did actually correct your assumption.

Malkie, that sounds like a very inefficient God. I have faith in a God that is able to get His message through to people who want to hear it.

The point of such an analysis is simple: you go back, layer by layer, to your base assumption(s), and examine their foundations at each stage to assure yourself that there is no reasonable alternative.

I have no objection to that. I just didn't want to get mired down in the "LDS truth claims" that Doc was talking about, that I may or may not have actually believed in.

Note that I'm not saying that I can prove that a god created the universe, and all that is in at, only that I find that goddidit adds no value at any point.

Is that a typo?

[KevinSim]

Well. Good to see it works for you. Deadass bet no cap fr fr, it slaps.

Doc, is that English?

[KevinSim]

Are prophets and apostles experts on the Holy Spirit?

I do not know.

Do you think Brigham Young was very good at recognizing the voice of the spirit?

I have no idea. I don't know why God chose Brigham Young to speak for Him.

All that said, what exactly would be the point of believing in a deity that observed but didn't intervene? I see no difference between such a deity and no deity at all.

I wonder the same thing.

So someone who has chosen to believe in an active God has pretty much chosen to believe in one that will intervene.